WTC7 - The fires failed Girder 44-79

I'm not sure an S-8-33 actually exists.
It didn't in his video. ;) He cropped the page so floor 33 was at the top. You couldn't see how the lower drawings were numbered but the floors above were marked with ascending numbers. His own video does not support his claim.
 
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ok, its unlocked, its part of a longer vid thats a work in progress, so it wont be there long, i only showed it to shut gamolon up with his accusations.

Still, or again, private.

This is silly.
 
Kind of makes my point, thanks.

Right. Your point being that floors 8 through 20 and 24 trough 45 were typical framing as shown on ONE drawing (S-8). Even your source, John Salvarinas says so. Twice. In his paper. As shown below.

I noticed you skipped right over this.

:rolleyes:

Salv11_1.png

Salv11_18.png
 
It didn't in his video. ;) He cropped the page so floor 33 was at the top. You couldn't see how the lower drawings were numbered but the floors above were marked with ascending numbers. His own video does not support his claim.

Was there another video aside from the one gerrycan posted that is private?
 
Was there another video aside from the one gerrycan posted that is private?
The video was open for a short amount of time. It was essentially a screen shot of an index of drawings (all types). The problem I saw is you couldn't see what "S" drawings any of the other floors used. It seemed to me like he really didn't want you to look very closely at this document.

His comment to me about how he thinks the drawings for lower floors should have been marked was not supported by this index.
 
The video was open for a short amount of time. It was essentially a screen shot of an index of drawings (all types). The problem I saw is you couldn't see what "S" drawings any of the other floors used. It seemed to me like he really didn't want you to look very closely at this document.

His comment to me about how he thinks the drawings for lower floors should have been marked was not supported by this index.

Thanks DGM.

:)
 
What does the top say gerrycan?
s8titleblock.png


TYP. FLOOR FRAMING PLAN 8th to 20th & 24th TO 45th

Do you know what "TYP." means in that title? Or maybe the words "8th TO 24th" are confusing you? Or is it "24th TO 45th" you're having a hard time with?

:confused:
Ahhh, so youre not lookin at the skidmore. owings and merril title sheet then, where it says that s-8 is the 33rd floor framing plan. No wonder you're confused.

“The original 7 World Trade Center was a 47-story building, designed by Emery Roth & Sons, with a red granite facade. The building was 610 feet (190 m) tall, with a trapezoidal footprint that was 330 ft (100 m) long and 140 ft (43 m) wide.[4][5] Tishman Realty & Construction managed construction of the building, which began in 1983.[4] In March 1987, the building opened, becoming the seventh structure of the World Trade Center. “ (wiki)
The drawings you showed were by architects/engineers SOM dated 1989 and were tenant improvement drawings. The shell of the building had already been completed.

Gamolon is right. The structural drawings used to build the shell are there, in the electronic files . S8 of the shell structure refers to typical multiple floor plans. It’s common in the industry . I do multiple floor hotels, apartments and residential condos using one sheet typical for multiple floors.

The SOM drawings showing S8, 33rd floor plan refer to the tenant improvements, another job by a different firm.

You are the one that is confused.
 
The drawings you showed were by architects/engineers SOM dated 1989 and were tenant improvement drawings.

BasqueArch,

Can you point me in the direction of these drawings that he supposedly showed (in this forum or elsewhere perhaps)? Or were these in the video that is now private?

Thanks.
 
BasqueArch,

Can you point me in the direction of these drawings that he supposedly showed (in this forum or elsewhere perhaps)? Or were these in the video that is now private?

Thanks.
These were in the video that is now private.
eta: Only the title sheet lower right corner was shown.
 
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My highlight
The video was open for a short amount of time. It was essentially a screen shot of an index of drawings (all types). The problem I saw is you couldn't see what "S" drawings any of the other floors used. It seemed to me like he really didn't want you to look very closely at this document.

His comment to me about how he thinks the drawings for lower floors should have been marked was not supported by this index.

Right you are. SOM tenant drawings S8 floor 33 would place S1 at floor 26.
This matches the date that Salomon Brothers occupied the top 19 floors.
Gerrycan's cropped selective video doesn't show this nor the title block, which I believe would be titled "Salomon Brothers Tenant Improvements" or similar.
 
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit
I'm not sure an S-8-33 actually exists.
So you are unsure. Fair comment.
Originally Posted by DGM
The video was open for a short amount of time. It was essentially a screen shot of an index of drawings (all types). The problem I saw is you couldn't see what "S" drawings any of the other floors used. It seemed to me like he really didn't want you to look very closely at this document.

His comment to me about how he thinks the drawings for lower floors should have been marked was not supported by this index.

Yes, again, a fair comment. This index does however, prove that more than one S-8 drawing does indeed exist, and that a title sheet that calls S-8 to be the 33rd floor framing plan exists. This proves that Gamolon was 100% wrong when he said, in post #490
“You made up the existence of a supposed title sheet referring to an S-8 drawing being for floor 33. You keep making crap up to support your arguments. It makes you look silly.”
Gamolon, you should admit that you were wrong in saying this.

Also, Basquearch. When you say,
“Right you are. SOM tenant drawings S8 floor 33 would place S1 at floor 26.
This matches the date that Salomon Brothers occupied the top 19 floors.
Gerrycan's cropped selective video doesn't show this nor the title block, which I believe would be titled "Salomon Brothers Tenant Improvements" or similar.”

…I can understand the logic, but you are mistaken. Floor 26 is not referred to at all, and certainly not in drawing S-1.

Finally, as I said before, I stated 9 months or so ago that the drawings I would have liked to have used in the original video were S-8-12 and S-8-13. Then, as now, I wouldn’t refer to a drawing that did not exist.
 
As ever, the truth will be discovered only by those that can't use the quote function or apostrophes. It's pretty much a religious belief system.
 
Originally Posted by Newtons Bit
I'm not sure an S-8-33 actually exists.
So you are unsure. Fair comment.

I have the structural drawings from the FOIA request (which AE911truth erroneously calls "blueprints"). There is no S-8-33 in it. Maybe an S-8-33 exists, but it's not in the same set of information that everyone else has.
 
As ever, the truth will be discovered only by those that can't use the quote function or apostrophes. It's pretty much a religious belief system.

HTML is a lot harder than structural engineering, obviously.
 
Finally, as I said before, I stated 9 months or so ago that the drawings I would have liked to have used in the original video were S-8-12 and S-8-13. Then, as now, I wouldn’t refer to a drawing that did not exist.

So when do you plan to show evidence that they do? All of the drawings I've seen agree that floor 33 is one of the TYPICAL S-8 floors (among several others). The index you showed does not support the numbering (dash something) you claim should exist.

Why didn't you just show us the whole page? You have to understand why we would think this was deceptive.
 
Originally Posted by Newtons Bit
I'm not sure an S-8-33 actually exists.
So you are unsure. Fair comment.
Originally Posted by DGM
The video was open for a short amount of time. It was essentially a screen shot of an index of drawings (all types). The problem I saw is you couldn't see what "S" drawings any of the other floors used. It seemed to me like he really didn't want you to look very closely at this document.

His comment to me about how he thinks the drawings for lower floors should have been marked was not supported by this index.

Yes, again, a fair comment. This index does however, prove that more than one S-8 drawing does indeed exist, and that a title sheet that calls S-8 to be the 33rd floor framing plan exists. This proves that Gamolon was 100% wrong when he said, in post #490
“You made up the existence of a supposed title sheet referring to an S-8 drawing being for floor 33. You keep making crap up to support your arguments. It makes you look silly.”
Gamolon, you should admit that you were wrong in saying this.

Also, Basquearch. When you say,
“Right you are. SOM tenant drawings S8 floor 33 would place S1 at floor 26.
This matches the date that Salomon Brothers occupied the top 19 floors.
Gerrycan's cropped selective video doesn't show this nor the title block, which I believe would be titled "Salomon Brothers Tenant Improvements" or similar.”

…I can understand the logic, but you are mistaken. Floor 26 is not referred to at all, and certainly not in drawing S-1.

Finally, as I said before, I stated 9 months or so ago that the drawings I would have liked to have used in the original video were S-8-12 and S-8-13. Then, as now, I wouldn’t refer to a drawing that did not exist.

How would the existence or non-existence of certain plans prove an inside job?
 
So are you saying that even with odds against it of a million-to-one, you would accept the credibility of the NIST 'prevailing heat from migrating office cubicle fires' hypothesis?
Yes, assuming you're representing the hypothesis correctly. Because it actually happened. Unlikely events happen all the time.

Well I didn't think you had to be a detective to see that?
Plastic can look like an apple. What something looks like is not what it is.

You state that no buildings over 30 stories have ever been felled by controlled demolition [commercially].

Since these buildings tend to exist in high density commercial areas, there are obvious reasons for using other demolition methods.

Probably the biggest single reason, other than the debris cloud, is that it is hard to get buildings to drop straight down.
So you cannot provide any evidence of the similar towers you claimed existed. Gotcha.

The NIST hypothesis requires very smart fires and a secret fuel stash.
So because they determined it probably went a certain path, it means that it had to have been directed along that path?

Fires that amazingly performed a complete high speed building demolition.
Most demolitions don't take seven hours.

And did so, accidentally no less, on a building 56% taller than those in the published engineering record.
And? My point was that any such building you provide wouldn't have been close to the size of WTC 7, which means saying it had a "similar outline" is dubious at best.

AND, produced a total collapse with a visual outline previously identifiable only with those steel towers felled by controlled demolition.
What steel towers? Provide examples.
You appear to be confused so I'll re-phrase that question.

Do you believe that demolition engineers could do what the NIST argues was possible with the prevailing heat from migrating office cubicle fires?

Induce a column failure comparable to what the NIST claims to have happened to the undamaged column 79.
Yes, but it'd be a much, much worse than million-to-one chance of them pulling it off right. Of course, any statistician can tell you that million to one chances are well known for being unreliable. Unlikely things may happen, but a sane engineer should never count on them.

Of course, once you include the other factors you're ignoring (building on fire on multiple floors, having to plant explosives and wiring in secret in a heavily trafficked building in the middle of Manhattan, using an experimental method of demolition), then it's out and out impossible.

No.

What I am saying is that building demolition companies would have to be magicians in order to get the necessary abeyance of reality to create high speed total steel building collapses by fire.

MM
They sure would. Which is why they don't use fire, on account of it being unreliable. Who do you think you're rebutting here? Fire can collapse steel buildings. It'd be nigh-impossible to do in any sort of controlled manner, but it could happen. Whether a CD crew could make fire collapse the building is not relevant to the question of whether random fire made the building collapse. Quit trying to backdoor "CD" so you can backdoor "explothermite".

I'd also like to assert that your "high-speed" has no objective scientific definition in this context, and you're using it to add credibility.

Also, you didn't answer my last question;

"How did they make sure WTC 1 hit 7 and gave them an excuse, without damaging any of the explosives or wiring?"

I'm not sure what you're looking for with this fishing expedition.
 
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I have the structural drawings from the FOIA request (which AE911truth erroneously calls "blueprints"). There is no S-8-33 in it. Maybe an S-8-33 exists, but it's not in the same set of information that everyone else has.
That there are more drawings out there than you or I have seen is undoubtedly true, as is the fact that NIST failed to represent connections and elements in a manner supported by analysis of the drawings you cite above. What we have is a selective release of drawings and a misrepresentation of their contents.
 

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