WTC7 - The fires failed Girder 44-79

And WTC7 Did. What's your point? You're not going with the stupid, "if it never happened before, it couldn't have happened" argument. That's like something grade school kids would do. Naturally you got something better. We'll wait. :rolleyes:

Especially since I already asked him to find a CD that took place in the core of a building on fire, among other things.

He seems to have stopped responding to my posts. I wonder why.
 
Yes, again, a fair comment. This index does however, prove that more than one S-8 drawing does indeed exist, and that a title sheet that calls S-8 to be the 33rd floor framing plan exists. This proves that Gamolon was 100% wrong when he said, in post #490

Wrong. In the Emery/Roth set of drawings, there is no S-8 drawing titled for the 33rd floor.

“You made up the existence of a supposed title sheet referring to an S-8 drawing being for floor 33. You keep making crap up to support your arguments. It makes you look silly.”
Gamolon, you should admit that you were wrong in saying this.

I'm not wrong. You are trying to cover your behind by extending the discussion regarding the drawings to now include the Skidmore drawings. Our discussion was about your video and the Emery/Roth drawings and the Frankel drawings and the fact that you wanted there to be individual drawings within those two sets to refer to individual floors.

Yes, there may have been other "S-8" drawings out there, but they are not part of your discussion, nor do they have anything to do with the two sets in your video. This has been explained to you numerous times, but you fail to understand it.
 
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Gamolon, you should admit that you were wrong in saying this.

Furthermore, I have yet to see your proof of a title page showing anything. I have seen others post about seeing the video clip you linked to, but that's it. Based on what they saw and their comments, your "proof" leaves much to be desired.

It didn't in his video. ;) He cropped the page so floor 33 was at the top. You couldn't see how the lower drawings were numbered but the floors above were marked with ascending numbers. His own video does not support his claim.
 
"...One Meridian Plaza, totaled by fire, gone - Windsor building, gone, destroyed by fire. WTC 5, 6, gone, totaled by fire. ..."
"Meridian Plaza did not collapse.

The Windsor Building did not collapse.

WTC 5, 6 did not collapse."
And WTC7 Did. What's your point? You're not going with the stupid, "if it never happened before, it couldn't have happened" argument. That's like something grade school kids would do. Naturally you got something better. We'll wait. :rolleyes:

What's your point?

None of the spectacular steel office tower fire examples cited by beachnut resulted in structural steel destruction comparable to the level of structural steel destruction performed by the arguably lesser fires in WTC7 .

Aerial views did reveal that WTC 5 & mostly 6, both lying in the debris zone between WTC1 and WTC7, sustained extreme core damage with large round center holes from the roof to the basement. (Some have postulated that under the cover of the collapsing WTC1, core detonations were planned for WTC 5, 6 & 7.)

Even after receiving thousands of tons of WTC1 debris falling from up to a thousand feet, the steel structure of WTC6 remained standing. It then faced the subsequent raging office cubicle fires, but unlike WTC7, never collapsed, and required a slow commercial demolition post 9/11.

WTC7, being further away suffered far less debris damage.

Using observations and conclusions from a very long history of fires in steel office towers, it would require a great leap of imagination to find any evidence that fires, engineered or by random fluke, can cause the complete collapse of a steel office tower.

It would require an even greater leap of imagination to accept the likely possibility that this NIST hypothesis of a fire-induced collapse could achieve a visual profile which would be a demolition engineer's wetdream.

MM
 
What's your point?

None of the spectacular steel office tower fire examples cited by beachnut resulted in structural steel destruction comparable to the level of structural steel destruction performed by the arguably lesser fires in WTC7 .

A claim you have never been able to support. :rolleyes:


It would require an even greater leap of imagination to accept the likely possibility that this NIST hypothesis of a fire-induced collapse could achieve a visual profile which would be a demolition engineer's wetdream.

MM

These guys don't really want to destroy things they weren't paid to. Maybe you missed that part. Your perceived level of precision would give demo contractors insurance carriers nightmares.
 
I can just imagine the telephone conversation between the "truther" demo company and the insurance company.

  • <TDC> We're a new company and we plan to demolish buildings using the same techniques used on 9/11.

    <INS> Excuse me?

    <TDC> You know, Start fires so the buildings fall into their own footprint.

    <INS> What?

    <TDC> What part don't you understand? NIST said fires brought down the buildings.

    <INS> OK?

    <TDC> We're going to do it the same way.

    <INS> OK, for that policy we need 9 billion dollars premium...........In advance.

    <TDC> Cool, the lease holder has 10 billion in insurance. We'll make out like a bandit.

:D
 
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What's your point?

None of the spectacular steel office tower fire examples cited by beachnut resulted in structural steel destruction comparable to the level of structural steel destruction performed by the arguably lesser fires in WTC7 .

The point is you're trying to make a comparison between situations and objects with totally different aspects and expecting the exact same result?

Totally ridiculous.

Were the fires un-fought in all buildings being discussed?

Were they all constructed the same structurally?

Let me ask you this MM. Since you're expecting the same results for office fires no matter WHAT the design, why did the Windsor tower partially collapse, yet the Meridian tower didn't. Both had fires in them right?

I guess they all had interior girders with floor beams on ONE side of them right?
 
Using observations and conclusions from a very long history of fires in steel office towers,

Using the above, how about removing all steel office towers that DON'T have the same aspects as the WTC7 scenario...

Which buildings in that LONG history you speak of were un-fought? Which were 47 stories high? Which were trapezoid in shape? Which had central girders with floor beams on only one side?

I suppose you think the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was a bunch of baloney also because something like that never happened previously. Holy crap! No bridge EVER collapsed from wind vibration!!!! CONSPIRACY!!!!!
 
I suppose you think the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was a bunch of baloney also because something like that never happened previously. Holy crap! No bridge EVER collapsed from wind vibration!!!! CONSPIRACY!!!!!

This, in a nutshell.

That it was a strange occurrence <> CT.

Unless, of course, one is prone to CT belief and just looking for any excuse...
 
Using the above, how about removing all steel office towers that DON'T have the same aspects as the WTC7 scenario...

Which buildings in that LONG history you speak of were un-fought? Which were 47 stories high? Which were trapezoid in shape? Which had central girders with floor beams on only one side?

I suppose you think the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was a bunch of baloney also because something like that never happened previously. Holy crap! No bridge EVER collapsed from wind vibration!!!! CONSPIRACY!!!!!

What about the wobbly bridge in London. No bridge ever nearly failed that way before either. It was a conspiracy by pedestrians.
 
Using observations and conclusions from a very long history of fires in steel office towers, it would require a great leap of imagination to find any evidence that fires, engineered or by random fluke, can cause the complete collapse of a steel office tower.

It would require an even greater leap of imagination to accept the likely possibility that this NIST hypothesis of a fire-induced collapse could achieve a visual profile which would be a demolition engineer's wetdream.

MM
So, show why this particular building, with this particular configuration, with heat from the particular fires it had could not collapse from the expansion of affected beams by heat.

You know, the same kind of peculiar circumstances that caused all the unexpected and unforseen disasters that have all occurred, such as the aforementioned Tacoma Narrows bridge.

Or two space shuttle disasters.
Or United 232
Or the Johnstown Flood
Or the I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis
Or the SS Eastland
Or the Titanic

Say, how many people died when WTC7 collapsed anyway? What would be the point of a CD? On a building that you couldn't even gaurantee could be affected by the WTC1 or 2 collapse?
 
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...Using observations and conclusions from a very long history of fires in steel office towers, it would require a great leap of imagination to find any evidence that fires, engineered or by random fluke, can cause the complete collapse of a steel office tower.
Except that there is plenty of evidence that fire can collapse steel, and both LeftySarge and TriForCharity have much more fire knowledge than you, and think it's perfectly possible.

Also, literally no one has argued that fires could deliberately cause the collapse. In fact, we have argued that the odds of deliberately engineering a collapse in such a manner would be nigh-impossible, and certainly too slim for a conspiracy. You have attempted to conflate arson and random fire.

It would require an even greater leap of imagination to accept the likely possibility that this NIST hypothesis of a fire-induced collapse could achieve a visual profile which would be a demolition engineer's wetdream.

MM
About that; CD engineers have repeatedly said they could not have done 9/11, IIRC. The truthers managed to get one to say it looked like a CD...then he changed his opinion when he saw a video with sound.

Your layman's incredulity notwithstanding.

I can just imagine the telephone conversation between the "truther" demo company and the insurance company.

  • <TDC> We're a new company and we plan to demolish buildings using the same techniques used on 9/11.

    <INS> Excuse me?

    <TDC> You know, Start fires so the buildings fall into their own footprint.

    <INS> What?

    <TDC> What part don't you understand? NIST said fires brought down the buildings.

    <INS> OK?

    <TDC> We're going to do it the same way.

    <INS> OK, for that policy we need 9 billion dollars premium...........In advance.

    <TDC> Cool, the lease holder has 10 billion in insurance. We'll make out like a bandit.

:D

No, you don't understand. MM is saying that arson couldn't do it, therefore random fire couldn't do it, therefore it couldn't've been fire, therefore hushananothermite, therefore aliens.

Of course, this is all a lot of nonsense that relies on conflating arson and random fire, and predicting something with determining what has already happened.

Also, he's conveniently stopped responding to me after I doubled down on his attempted "first time in history" gambit.

...
Say, how many people died when WTC7 collapsed anyway? What would be the point of a CD? On a building that you couldn't even gaurantee could be affected by the WTC1 or 2 collapse?
I have repeatedly asked truthers how They knew 7 would be damaged. I've only gotten two answers, ever, both from Clayton Moore, which were basically "science!" and "computers!" with no elaboration.
 
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...
Using observations and conclusions from a very long history of fires in steel office towers, it would require a great leap of imagination to find any evidence that fires, engineered or by random fluke, can cause the complete collapse of a steel office tower.

It would require an even greater leap of imagination to accept the likely possibility that this NIST hypothesis of a fire-induced collapse could achieve a visual profile which would be a demolition engineer's wetdream.

MM

CD looks like a gravity collapse. You are fooled by observation and opinion not based on science.

You have no basis for your statements. The fantasy of CD has you ignoring physics. 11 years and you have done nothing to improve your knowledge on fire and steel.

You logic is flawed, and it leaves you pushing failed nonsense. Too bad you can't provide the equations and math to prove your point. A point which remains fantasy.
 
I would love to know where heat dissipates to when most of it is trapped inside of a building... :confused:
 
Hats off to you Gamolon! You have dealt gerrycan countless mortal blows but he refuses to lie down. I just wanted to post a few lines on my own humble contribution to this debate.

In Feb 2012, gerrycan was touting his video ‘Shear Ignorance - NIST and WTC7’ in the Truth Rooms - now deceased - at Paltalk. I popped along and gave it the once over. Not for a moment was I convinced by his argument, but his use of raw data did trigger some interest.

I confronted gerrycan in the Truth chat room on the 6th February. I outlined this intervention in a post entitled “Shear Studs, WTC 7 and All That.” (Posted to Alt. Conspiracy on 8th February),

“ I asked him if S-8-10 and 20 were plans for floor 10 and 20. Gerry confirmed that
they were. I argued with Gerry that NIST had placed a floor plan for the
relevant floors E 12/13(floors 12 and 13) in the public arena showing no
shear studs.** Gerry argued that it was ridiculous to believe that floors in
WTC 7 would have been constructed, other than along the lines shown in
S-8-10 and 20 which showed shear studs on the relevant girder. S-8-10/20
must have been typical for the floors between 10 and 20.

My interest in gerrycan’s raw data did not abate. He had obtained the structural drawings via a FOIA by Ron Brookman. This raw data was available on the internet, so I downloaded and tabulated it. I quickly realized the con that gerrycan was pulling and made my thoughts known under the nickname ‘Geoff1917’ at Youtube,

“There are some serious errors and much that is irrelevant in your video. Most disgraceful of all, is your use of S-8-10 and 20. These floor plans have nothing to do with 12 and 13. For that you should have used S-8. But that didn’t suit your purposes did it, because it shows NO SHEAR STUDS on that girder…. these drawings have titles: S-8-10 is the '10 floor framing plan', S-8-20 is '20th floor framing plan' and S- 8 is 'TYP floor framing plan 8th to 20th & 24th to 45th'
It is obvious which of these plan relates to floor 12 and 13. S-8 shows no shear stud on that element, which is why you ignored it. Keep cherry picking gerry”

I went further, and posted “Shear Studs, WTC 7 and All That.” It was around this time that I came across your marvellous debate with him at David Ike.com. Your intervention was forensic and detailed. You convinced me 100%, that what I had observed about gerrycan’s video was correct; accept that you had the expertise that I lacked.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, bringing clarity to the subject and thwarting the stupid Truther outpourings of the likes of gerrycan.

**NIST has since admitted that the reference cited in its report is incorrect and should reference ‘S-8’.

.
 
I would love to know where heat dissipates to when most of it is trapped inside of a building... :confused:

The south side in particular had a great number of broken windows after WTC1 fell.

The heated air was not trapped.

The rising smoke trails on the south side show the many venting paths exhausting the heat from within.

MM
 
The south side in particular had a great number of broken windows after WTC1 fell.

The heated air was not trapped.

The rising smoke trails on the south side show the many venting paths exhausting the heat from within.

MM

What??? You don't think there was smoke trapped in the building either???
 
My interest in gerrycan’s raw data did not abate. He had obtained the structural drawings via a FOIA by Ron Brookman. This raw data was available on the internet, so I downloaded and tabulated it. I quickly realized the con that gerrycan was pulling and made my thoughts known under the nickname ‘Geoff1917’ at Youtube,

.

Welcome cromwell:

You wouldn't happen to still have this data or know where it can be down-loaded? Did you actually see these drawings? As A8-10 or 20 would be an overlap of what is described as "typical"(A8), I would like to see what was the reason for these separate drawings. Were they dated after construction, such as would be the case of a tenant remodel?
 
Except that there is plenty of evidence that fire can collapse steel, and both LeftySarge and TriForCharity have much more fire knowledge than you, and think it's perfectly possible.

Also, literally no one has argued that fires could deliberately cause the collapse. In fact, we have argued that the odds of deliberately engineering a collapse in such a manner would be nigh-impossible, and certainly too slim for a conspiracy. You have attempted to conflate arson and random fire.

Terry Manning just posted this to You Tube. It pretty well supports the dictum that one can expect steel structures to collapse even in a relatively low-temperature Class B fire. NSFW for language.


 
Shear studs, or no shear studs…it really doesn’t matter. With the type of collapse we had with building 7, the shear studs are a minor detail, which are really not very important.

Yeah, the shear studs would have tied the top flange of the steel girder to the concrete floor (which acts like a large horizontal diaphragm), which would have help to stabilize the girder, especially against lateral torsional buckling. But at the end the day the bolts connecting beam 44 – 79 to the columns would have still failed in a dynamic and violent manner, releasing 50 to 100 tons of force. Girder 44 – 79 wouldn’t have walked off it supports, it would have exploded off, ripping apart everything within connection assembly. Once this connection fails, the column becomes unbraced and unstable and collapses.

End of Story
 

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