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Split Thread WTC2 was struck by a 'flying pig'

While we're waiting on Fonebone to return and elaborate on his missile theory...can someone help me with some math?

3200 pound missile traveling at 500mph...hits the building with X amount of kinetic energy...then the 1500 lb warhead goes off. How would you calculate the amount of energy released in the explosive?...and can you just add the two together to get the total amount of energy the missile and warhead delivered to the towers?

Kinetic energy is equal to KE = 1/2 m v2, where m is mass and v is velocity.

Using your numbers, a 3200 pound missile has a mass of about 1450 kg. 500 MPH translates into 220 m/s. So the kinetic energy in this case is KE = 0.5 * 1450 kg * (220 m/s)2 = 35,000,000 kg m2/s2, or 35 MJ.

For the explosive, we measure in the laboratory the chemical energy per unit mass. For most explosives it ranges between about 3 to 6 MJ/kg. The benchmark explosive trinitrotoluene, or TNT, measures about 4.184 MJ/kg. Using this, and your mass of about 700 kg, gives us an explosive chemical energy of CE = 700 kg * (4.184 MJ / kg) = 3,000 MJ or 3 GJ.

You could add the energies together, but whether or not that number was meaningful would depend on the problem. In your example, the explosive has about 100 times as much energy as the raw kinetic energy. But then again, in the WTC crashes, we don't typically add the chemical energy of the fuel to the kinetic energy of the aircraft. (That chemical energy is equivalent to a bomb approximately 400 times the size of your hypothetical example). This is partly because the explosives will not be as efficient -- it'll pressurize the atmosphere, make lots of heat which later escapes, and so on, whereas the kinetic impact will be nearly 100% efficient, its major inefficiency being deformation of the missile or aircraft itself.

The kinetic energy alone, both because of its magnitude and its efficiency, can be quite effective in destroying structures. This is why our Air Force has started using concrete bombs -- laser-guided, but not explosive at all -- for some missions, particularly where collateral damage is a risk.
 
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And why anti-tank artillery rounds are often solid shot, because it penetrates without exploding and bounces around without exiting. Getting hit by something that doesn't expend much of its energy trying to get in with you will often kill you better.
 
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Kinetic energy is equal to KE = 1/2 m v2, where m is mass and v is velocity.

Using your numbers, a 3200 pound missile has a mass of about 1450 kg. 500 MPH translates into 220 m/s. So the kinetic energy in this case is KE = 0.5 * 1450 kg * (220 m/s)2 = 35,000,000 kg m2/s2, or 35 MJ.

For the explosive, we measure in the laboratory the chemical energy per unit mass. For most explosives it ranges between about 3 to 6 MJ/kg. The benchmark explosive trinitrotoluene, or TNT, measures about 4.184 MJ/kg. Using this, and your mass of about 700 kg, gives us an explosive chemical energy of CE = 700 kg * (4.184 MJ / kg) = 3,000 MJ or 3 GJ.

You could add the energies together, but whether or not that number was meaningful would depend on the problem. In your example, the explosive has about 100 times as much energy as the raw kinetic energy. But then again, in the WTC crashes, we don't typically add the chemical energy of the fuel to the kinetic energy of the aircraft. (That chemical energy is equivalent to a bomb approximately 400 times the size of your hypothetical example). This is partly because the explosives will not be as efficient -- it'll pressurize the atmosphere, make lots of heat which later escapes, and so on, whereas the kinetic impact will be nearly 100% efficient, its major inefficiency being deformation of the missile or aircraft itself.

The kinetic energy alone, both because of its magnitude and its efficiency, can be quite effective in destroying structures. This is why our Air Force has started using concrete bombs -- laser-guided, but not explosive at all -- for some missions, particularly where collateral damage is a risk.

Thanks for the answer! (and wording that I could understand)

I was just trying to get an idea of how much more energy the plane put into the building vs. what a cruise missile could deliver.

...so... if we use "Dropzonian" physics...the total amount of energy released by the plane would be a "buttload"....and the energy of the missile would be 3.5 X 10^-3 "buttloads"...and everyone knows 3.5 X10^-3 buttloads of energy will not bring down a building. :)
 
The energy of a missile is still potentially significant. HMS Sheffield in the Falklands comes to mind -- holed by an Exocet that did not explode, yet started a fire that caused parts of the superstructure to collapse, and the hulk to eventually sink.

 
The energy of a missile is still potentially significant. HMS Sheffield in the Falklands comes to mind -- holed by an Exocet that did not explode, yet started a fire that caused parts of the superstructure to collapse, and the hulk to eventually sink.


But in that case you have to take the chemical energy of the contents of the ship into consideration, since that might have played a role in the fire. This is not unlike the WTC towers collapses, since the combustible contents of the towers likely played a role in sustaining the initial fires, and contributed to the collapses.
 
The energy of a missile is still potentially significant. HMS Sheffield in the Falklands comes to mind -- holed by an Exocet that did not explode, yet started a fire that caused parts of the superstructure to collapse, and the hulk to eventually sink.



And this, of course, falsifies the oft repeated "aluminium can't penetrate steel" truther mantra.


Compus
 
The energy of a missile is still potentially significant. HMS Sheffield in the Falklands comes to mind -- holed by an Exocet that did not explode, yet started a fire that caused parts of the superstructure to collapse, and the hulk to eventually sink.


But wouldn't the damage be extremely localized? You only need to punch a hole in a ship to make it sink...where a building is a little different.

calcm2.jpg


Here's the missile he's referring too with a man-sized target for scale. Seems to me, the KE of the missile hitting the building would only affect 1 or 2 of the perimeter columns, and none of the core columns. The warhead is a blast fragmentation warhead...so I'm not sure how effective it would be against large steel columns.
 
But wouldn't the damage be extremely localized? You only need to punch a hole in a ship to make it sink...where a building is a little different.

So it was in the WTC as well. The damage was much larger, of course, but still localized.

Just as fire destroyed the Sheffield, fire destroyed the Towers. Fire is bad news.
 
Well, it's no "snipers where picking people off the WTC" crazy, but still pretty darn crazy. Well done Fonebone.

I'm guessing that means that all those people to fell to their deaths were actually gunshot victims?

I know my question sounds dense but based on my relative newness to conspiraloons, for all I know somebody could be alleging that a wicked good team of snipers were busy putting lead into ALL the victims...
 
I'm guessing that means that all those people to fell to their deaths were actually gunshot victims?

I know my question sounds dense but based on my relative newness to conspiraloons, for all I know somebody could be alleging that a wicked good team of snipers were busy putting lead into ALL the victims...

That's why we... urrruummm... I mean they had to take out WTC 7. They hate cleaning up spent brass. :boxedin:
 
True , the powerplant of a jumbo jet is about four times larger than a CALCM missile turbo fan but the CALCM engine is only fractionally smaller than a jet fighter's power plant.

So, using your "logic" a 3 cyl. in a Chevy Metro should sound the same as a Triton V-12.

Excellent. I love your "logic". LOL!!
 
So, using your "logic" a 3 cyl. in a Chevy Metro should sound the same as a Triton V-12.

Excellent. I love your "logic". LOL!!

In reality it's like comparing a Briggs & Stratton 5hp pull start go cart engine to the V12.

Cruise missile - http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=885
Compressor: Two-spool, counter-rotating
Turbine: Two-spool, counter-rotating
Weight: 146 lbs.
Thrust: 600 lbs. maximum

F18 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F404
* 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
* 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
* Type: Afterburning turbofan
* Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
* Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
* Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)

767 - Weighs close to 9000 lbs and has 50000 lbf of thrust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_JT9D

Of course, just like in cars, horsepower (thrust) to weight ratio is always important.
 
Yeah, but using HIS "logic" they should sound the same.

I do see the thrust of the drone is about 600 lbs, versus 50,000 lbs.

Yeah, so that is closer to a Homelite 1/2 HP weedwacker.

LOL!! You couldn't make this *&^% up!!!
 

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