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WTC Steel

RedIbis said:
I figured that since we were discussing the evidence that a steel core column had exceeded a certain temp, any evidence would be physical in nature.

One can never underestimate the value of semantics in this forum.
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Really...?

Get yourself about 20 6' lengths of steel pipe. Build a bonfire. Stick the pipe a variable distance from the bonfire. Some in the center, some near the edge, some completely out of the fire. Now let them cool. After they've cooled for a couple of weeks, take 10 of them & tell me how you plan on telling me the temperatures that they saw.

Take the other 10 and bury them in another fire pit, a really hot one, for about 2 months.

Now tell me how you plan on telling me their time-temp exposure in the FIRST bonfire only. Please give an indication of your expected error bands in both time & temp.

I'm anxious to hear your proposal ...


Tom
 
tfk said:
Really...?

Get yourself about 20 6' lengths of steel pipe. Build a bonfire. Stick the pipe a variable distance from the bonfire. Some in the center, some near the edge, some completely out of the fire. Now let them cool. After they've cooled for a couple of weeks, take 10 of them & tell me how you plan on telling me the temperatures that they saw.

Take the other 10 and bury them in another fire pit, a really hot one, for about 2 months.

Now tell me how you plan on telling me their time-temp exposure in the FIRST bonfire only. Please give an indication of your expected error bands in both time & temp.

I'm anxious to hear your proposal ...


Tom
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So how did they determine the temps of the steel they did have?
 
oh @#$%, not again

Y'know, if you take the time to peruse NCSTAR 1-3, you will find, on page 134 of the .pdf, Table 6-2, which gives the locations from which the identified core column samples came, by column number and floor. You will also find two handy diagrams, figs. 6-29a & 6-29b, which show the locations of all the column numbers within the core.

Armed with that information, you can go to NCSTAR 1-5 and examine what temperatures the fire simulations predicted those columns would reachon those floors. You'll find the relevant figures on pp. 198-226 of the .pdf.

Guess what? The predictions are consistent with the physical evidence for those column samples.

In simple terms, troofers, your precious "but the columns weren't hotter than 250C" schtick means exactly the opposite of what you want it to mean- it tends to validate the results of the fire sims, that is, it increases our confidence that they weren't wildly cockeyed when they predicted much higher temperatures for some of the other core columns.

This information is readily available to anyone who has the rudimentary skills involved in reading English text and interpreting a color-coded graphic presentation of numerical data.

And yet, you continue to bleat this discredited talking point. Why?
 
Puzzle: Clearly (to moi anyways) if the obviousness of a "CD" is so obvious, then the guys at NIST (who are educated to a degree far advanced of the average truther high school student) would recognize this. They would have realized they were being asked to advance a lie. Why then, would they not lie and say they had seen evidence that the temperatures reached, oh, say, 1500 degrees? Hell, you are lying already, why not support it with whatever numbers make it work best? Even photoshop some pics and make up some faux data charts. Who can argue, if you have conveniently sent the steel off to China?

It makes no sense to me whatsoever. But then, truther carp rarely does. :confused:
 
We can actually make a pretty solid conclusion that NIST did in fact find core columns exposed to temperatures in excess of 250 degrees.

The method used for determining the temperature exposure was the affect of heat on paint. However, this process was limited, because when exposed to a particular level of heat the paint was completely burned off, thus destroying the required evidence for temperature assessment.

However, we can know that any column with burned off paint must have been exposed to temperatures in excess of those where paint remained.

Since columns with an exposure of 250 degrees retained paint (because this is how they determined the temperature), it must follow that any column where paint was completely burned off must have experienced a temperature at a minimum in excess of 250 degrees.

Thus, NIST recovered steel that was exposed to temperatures in excess of 250 degrees.

It's simple deduction, dear Watson.
 
RedIbis said:
Because it was melted down and recycled for trinkets.
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Found one!

1.jpg
 
RedIbis said:
It is indeed absurd that the NIST collapse hypothesis is based on core columns exceeding 250C, when no evidence exists for it.
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What is the ignition temperature of Jet-A fuel?
What is the burning temperature of jet fuel?

I think you will find that both are well over 250 deg., what more evidence is needed?
 
RedIbis has avoided this question. Maybe another Truther will give it a shot.

If the WTC steel contained evidence for a CD, why would the conspirators allow it to be shipped on a barge to China?
 
fess said:
What is the ignition temperature of Jet-A fuel?
What is the burning temperature of jet fuel?

I think you will find that both are well over 250 deg., what more evidence is needed?
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And then you have the combustion of the materials and fittings in the offices that can produce temperatures in the 1000-1200 degree range..
 
sylvan8798 said:
Puzzle: Clearly (to moi anyways) if the obviousness of a "CD" is so obvious, then the guys at NIST (who are educated to a degree far advanced of the average truther high school student) would recognize this. They would have realized they were being asked to advance a lie. Why then, would they not lie and say they had seen evidence that the temperatures reached, oh, say, 1500 degrees? Hell, you are lying already, why not support it with whatever numbers make it work best? Even photoshop some pics and make up some faux data charts. Who can argue, if you have conveniently sent the steel off to China?

It makes no sense to me whatsoever. But then, truther carp rarely does. :confused:
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:confused: is right...

This thread is too far along in the process of group think to be helped.

Enjoy your thread, posters.

all the best
 
Clippy said:
RedIbis has avoided this question. Maybe another Truther will give it a shot.

If the WTC steel contained evidence for a CD, why would the conspirators allow it to be shipped on a barge to China?
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because the chance is lower someone will notice something while recycling.
less educated workers there.
 
DC said:
because the chance is lower someone will notice something while recycling.
less educated workers there.
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Thanks for answering, DC.

The issue of it being recycled was not the central point, but I would counter that it could have been recycled in the US, where the conspirators would have much more control over who saw the steel and what was done with it.

As for less educated workers, I don't know that the chances of the average Joe or the average Jin knowing what they were looking at would be much different. And the real danger would be from somebody who knew what to look for having a look at the steel. Seems awfully careless to risk that happening in China.
 
Derek Johnson said:
Next day? Says who?
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My hyperbole, based on years of reading truther misinformation. The next day, immeadiately and most importantly - that ALL of the steel was shipped out for recycling. This is one of what I believe are the top ten truther lies. That all the steel is gone for good and now there is now way to "disprove" their whacky theories.
 
And the steel is still being recycled. What exactly is it that 'truthers' think is wrong with that?

The following message is from FDNY firefighter, Lee Ielpi (Ret).

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is accepting requests from organizations that would like to request a piece of World Trade Center steel. The steel was recovered from the World Trade Center site after September 11, 2001 and secured at JFK Airport by The Port Authority of NY and NJ until now.

The September 11th Families Association is proud to be part of this great effort to distribute steel to organizations interested in creating memorials. The steel withstood the most horrific attack on American soil that took the lives of 2,973 innocent people - one of whom was my son Jonathan Ielpi a Firefighter with FDNY Squad 288. This is an extraordinary opportunity to obtain a piece of World Trade Center steel.

The steel must be used in a memorial open to the general public such as in parks, fire/EMS/police stations, emergency service training grounds for uniformed personnel or places of public assembly. The steel is not intended for and may not be used in personal collections, sold or used for fundraising. All requests for steel must be in writing on official letterhead from an officer of the requesting agency, or a not for profit organization and will be verified.

Requests from departments outside the United States are welcome.

INSTRUCTIONS HERE: http://www.911families.org/WTC%20Steel%20Public%20Memorials.pdf

(snipped)
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And the PANYNJ is hardly making a secret of their continuing efforts to recycle the steel.

http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress/wtc-9-11-steel.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_York_(LPD-21)
 
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