WTC dust

[excaza]

Although, I should point out that if what you have really IS steel, you shouldn't be getting a pH reading at all.

minor detail

 

[leftysergeant]

When I have a very good understanding of physics and of science in general, having earned almost every dollar I've ever earned in science laboratories or science classrooms, why not be open minded to what I'm saying?

Because your research methods are slovenly. You assert, with no factual basis, that an aluminum object cannot damage a steel object. History is not your griend. Did you, as I suggested, Google "USS Hinsdale?" And aluminum object flying at a far lower speed than the aircraft that hit the towers or the Pentagon went right through the steel hull and nearly sank the ship.

A lead bullet will go through a steel car door. It will be shaped far differently when it stops moving, but it will penetrate. Now, you would have to be very dim-witted not to know that lead is vastly softer than steel. What matters is that it is heavy and just full of kinetic energy and delivers far more of that kinetic energy to the steel car door than the steel can reist.

The aircraft were also quite heavy, quite fast, and thus quite full of kinetic energy and they delivered it all to remarkably small areas of the steel perimetrer columns. Although they were not energetic enough to shear the steel itself, they were quite able to break the bolted and lightly-welded joints between the columns. Look at that picture of Edna Cintron waving from the entry hole. The edges of the hole are not a smooth line, but stepped in intervals of three columns. This is exactly the way the columns were bolted together when the building was assembled.

Slovenly research on your part.

I have spent my life as a scientist, starting when I took extra science classes in high school and won first place in science competitions, etc. I was accepted into medical school at age 17, accepted at Stanford, graduated valedictorian, graduated with a science degree on the honor rolls, earned a PhD early, completed a postdoctoral fellowship, industry experience, peer reviewed journal articles with my name as first author...

And you still failed to apply the same procedures to research concerning the ability of an aircraft to penetrate the towers.

Even one of the designers of the building stated, some time before he was killed in the collapse, that an aircraft flying at 100-200 MPH would penetrate the perimeter columns. He made the mistake of assuming that it would not hit faster or produce such horrendous wide-spread fires and cripple fire fighting efforts. It cost him his life.

And I lived in lower Manhattan and smelled the strange fire coming from Ground Zero with my own nose. Darn it! The size of the fire doesn't determine the smell. It's what is ON FIRE that determines the smell. You don't have to be a physics whiz to understand this.

Well, DUH! You probably never smelled so many burning, decomposed body parts and so much PVC and similar synthetic materials burning before. Bloody few people have.

Aluminum airplanes cannot pierce through steel beams WITHOUT SHOWING SIGNS THAT THEY HIT STEEL BEAMS! Crash physics are easy to understand.

Yeah. The nose crumpled up as the rest of the fuselage caught up and the steel started to give. Because the fuselage is so fragile, the tail is not going to stop just because the nose did. It still had enough kinetic energy, once the perimeter columns failed , to go on to damage or destroy additional structure inside the perimeter. By the time it was half-way across the floor, it was in thousands of pieces, but those pieces still had mass and kinetic energy to spare. It did a lot of damage before it all stopped moving. The last piece to stop moving was an engine, the densest and hardest part of the whole aircraft. It finally petered out about a quarter of a mile away after passing entirely through the building like a big titanium bullet.

Can a fast car hit a tree without damage to the car? No. And cars are made of steel, not aluminum.

I have seen cars destroy trees. A friend of mine went off the road at 70 MPH and broke a pear tree into about fifty pieces and came to rest ten feet beyond the tree.

The car and the tree were both a total loss. The engine mounts broke and dropped the engine to the ground and the engine dug a short trench befoe the car stopped moving.

So what was your point again? About the cars and trees, I mean.

 

[leftysergeant]

Although, I should point out that if what you have really IS steel, you shouldn't be getting a pH reading at all.

Portland cement, on the other hand, is STRONGLY alkaline. Unslaked, it will eat your lungs out after a very short time.

 

[excaza]

I'm at a loss as to why someone who just made a huge fuss about their academic laurels tried to measure the pH of a metal.

 

[carlitos]

attention whore^WP

 

[leftysergeant]

I'm at a loss as to why someone who just made a huge fuss about their academic laurels tried to measure the pH of a metal.

As I pointed out. her research methods are slovenly. She just supported my hypothesis against her own.

 

[starri]

Do you think 9 years of serious research into the question is giving the event enough respect? I do.

I truly hate having to go to the Godwin's Law extreme, but there have been 65 years of academic study of the Holocaust across any number of disciplines (in particular, the Millgram experiment sticks out in my mind), but I don't think that many years of serious research into the same is "enough" respect to allow us to make light of the situation.

25 years of the study of the continued effects of the vast swaths of the Ukraine and Belarus that were irradiated by the fire at the Chernobyl plant is not to me "enough" respect that now allows us to make light of it.

 

[leftysergeant]

Don't watch this whole video, unless you want to. Just go to 23:55 or so and take a look at the dust that John Hutchison created with less than 1.5 kW power.

http://blip.tv/file/4406457

I almost missed that post. Hutchison is a fraud. There is nothing that he has shown the world that I could not reproduce myself, had I only the money for a good video camera and a horizontal turntable with a wooden box mounted to it, and some samples of vartious metals, maybe a couple of electromagnets and a lump of tourmaline crystals in a matrix of some sort.

The old twit is just too pathetic for words.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

I actually don't consider this post to be an insult. You've explained yourself gently and with respect. I would like to hear more from you.

My issue is this: I think I'm right. I don't think that airplanes caused the damage. I'm not saying the people didn't die. I know they died. I smelled them. One of the things I swore at the time was that nobody would ever be able to tell me that "nobody died" at the WTC because I was right there, smelling the dead bodies. And I do know what dead bodies smell like, having worked for many years in the biomedical research field.

OK, maybe you should start thinking, and researching. Try this on for size:

Wierzbicki, T. & Teng, X. (2003). "How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center." J. of Impact Engrg. 28, pp. 601-625

Understanding what the planes did, and how it contributed to the collapse is important because the plane impact did not cause the collapse. How do I know this? The buildings stood for about an hour after the plane strike. The damage from the plane strikes (severed columns, removed fire protection, and other damage) and the resultant fire ignited by the jet fuel (which, as the fire fighters among us pointed out, was an accelerant), led to a chain of events resulting in the building collapsing. The evidence you have clearly ignored, such as triforcharity's pictures, shows you aren't interested in the truth.

Another thing I knew from my research experience, as well as life experience, is that the smell coming from Ground Zero was not from an ordinary fire. I swore to myself again that day that nobody would ever be able to convince me that it was an ordinary fire, because I was right there smelling the fire. The size of a fire has nothing to do with the smell. What is on fire determines the smell, and I knew that nothing in my life experience had ever brought me into contact with such a smell.

Given these two pieces of knowledge that no one can ever take away from me and that nobody will ever change, how in your thought process does that bring shame upon me?

And you've studied (and smelled) how many fires? You seem lacking in the knowledge to know what a fire is supposed to smell like.

And here's something that might bring some "shame" upon you, although I do not wish you to feel shame. Insisting that what I smelled was an ordinary fire is siding with those who say that the fire fighters dying left and right were dying from exposure to an ordinary fire. These people who are critically ill deserve to know the truth, as does everyone else who was exposed to the air in lower Manhattan for all those months.

I'm siding with the dead and with the living victims by searching for the real cause of destruction and the real perpetrators. You think hijackings and plane crashes were involved on 9/11, and I'm sorry about that, but I cannot be responsible for your own misconceptions. You have to be the one to come out of them yourself, and if you do, then you will see that I am very highly honoring the dead by finding the real perpetrators. You might like to see Osama bin Laden caught and punished for this crime, but would you really like it if that meant that the real perpetrators were never discovered?

9/11 isn't over. People are living who deserve the truth.

You haven't presented one piece of evidence, just some photo you claim is of dust from the collapse, and haven't even bothered to get it analyzed, yet claim "you're on the side of the victims." BS! Don't you think finding out what's in the dust is important for treating those who breathed that dust? Evidently not. You're lagging way behind the times.

From the CDC: Pulverized building materials predominated in the initial period post-collapse, while combustion-derived pollutants increased as rescue, recovery and cleanup progressed. The fires at the site created toxic combustion products, such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), dioxins, volatile organic compounds, and various other known carcinogenic compounds. Contaminants such as asbestos, hydrochloric acid, PCBs (Polychlorinated biphenyls), silica and heavy metals were found in the dust and ash resulting from the WTC collapse.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/blog/nsb090808_wtc.html

Here's a link to some papers regarding the dust and it's health effects. If you really cared about the fire fighters you wouldn't be worried about characterizing how the dust looks "from space," but that would be a concern if you were spaced.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/blog/nsb090808_wtc_cite.html

Added:
A lot of people confuse optical density with amount of dust. The fact that the dust cloud was opaque means only that light didn't penetrate it. The clouds that hung above the site weren't much denser than air so the total volume of dust in them was not large. Typical clouds in the sky contain a few grams of material per cubic meter. If we assume the 9-11 cloud had 10 grams per cubic meter - far more than even thick water droplet clouds, and the dust cloud occupied a cubic kilometer, far more than its actual volume, we have a billion cubic meters times ten grams per cubic meters, or ten billion grams, ten million kilograms, or 10,000 tons of dust, paltry compared to the million ton mass of the towers.
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/911NutPhysics.HTM

Your failure makes epic failure seem like success.

 

[Furcifer]

Another thing I knew from my research experience, as well as life experience, is that the smell coming from Ground Zero was not from an ordinary fire. I swore to myself again that day that nobody would ever be able to convince me that it was an ordinary fire, because I was right there smelling the fire..

I believe you talk to yourself, I just don't believe it was about how the smell of the fire was unusual. Or that you took a sample of dust that you just tested the pH of last week.

The plane pieces would have bounced off the exterior steel beams at the south face of WTC 2, not punctured through like Wiley Coyote going through a mountain. Cartoon physics, indeed.

Laying it on a little thick aren't you? You declined early admission to Stanford but you think metal bounces off metal at high velocity?

Come on, if you're smart enough for Stanford you're smart enough to know the story you're telling is bogus. Things aren't adding up here.

 

[banquetbear]

Do a google on my name, Tracy Blevins, and find out as much as you want about me. I never did time in jail, so I'm not that Tracy Blevins. I'm the one with pink hair.

...well, you've managed to convince me.


I am never, ever going to smoke marijuana.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

|||NEWS FLASH|||

pH studies complete on the dust sample

result? slightly basic (between pH 7.5 and 8)

Gypsum

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Either way, I claim that the steel vibrated apart without excess heat and became a heterogeneous foam.

Let's take a look at this claim, then shall we.

the standard definition for the word "Foam" is a collection of bubbles. or, if you will, a framework of solid material surrounding gas-filled voids (bubbles).

What is the gas in the bubbles in your heterogeneous foam?

Since the foam has had time to come to equilibrium with the atmosphere, the bubbles are filled with air. Like a sponge. There's nothing but air in the holes.

And just how does that happen? How does air get forced into a contiguous solid to form a foam?

Mechanistically, Dr. Wood has the best idea, even though she doesn't really talk about foam per se or multiple types of dust.

Explain please. How do “air” molecules get forced in between the iron and carbon atoms to form a foam?

 

[dtugg]

Dusty is around 40 and earned her PhD at the University of Texas Houston. She gave the title of her doctoral thesis earlier in this thread and I was able to google it.

 

[Justin39640]

I believe you talk to yourself, I just don't believe it was about how the smell of the fire was unusual. Or that you took a sample of dust that you just tested the pH of last week.





Laying it on a little thick aren't you? You declined early admission to Stanford but you think metal bounces off metal at high velocity?

Come on, if you're smart enough for Stanford you're smart enough to know the story you're telling is bogus. Things aren't adding up here.

Last night I was watching the military history channel and they were talking about Kamikaze attacks, specifically the Ohka rocket planes. One hit a ship and passed through both sides of the hull prior to detonating on the other side. They weighed in at about 1500kg and could travel 400 mph in level flight, almost 600 in a dive. If this lightweight, fast moving object had enough momentum to penetrate an armored steel hull twice, what would beams do to stop a massive jetliner traveling about the same speed (or faster).

 

[WildCat]

Last night I was watching the military history channel and they were talking about Kamikaze attacks, specifically the Ohka rocket planes. One hit a ship and passed through both sides of the hull prior to detonating on the other side. They weighed in at about 1500kg and could travel 400 mph in level flight, almost 600 in a dive. If this lightweight, fast moving object had enough momentum to penetrate an armored steel hull twice, what would beams do to stop a massive jetliner traveling about the same speed (or faster).

http://img363.imageshack.us/i/hinsdaleapa120kamikaze.jpg/

 

[Justin39640]

http://img363.imageshack.us/i/hinsdaleapa120kamikaze.jpg/

That was a much slower traditional plane I believe (wing prints) and it still made it through the hull.

 

[WildCat]

And here's the USS Sterett after she was hit by a kamikaze off Okinawa on April 9, 1945:

Bear in mind that Japanes warplanes were particularly flimsy, even for that period. And they couldn't fly nearly as fast as a modern jet. And the sides of the USS Sterett were armored.

Of course, WRC Dust will ignore this post.

 

[Justin39640]

Of course, WRC Dust will ignore this post.

Indeed.

 

[jhunter1163]

Some posts have been sent to AAH. Do not personalize your arguments.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163