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WTC dust

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Do you see anything that might be dust of two different types in the second image? Do you see some red smudges on the top part, on the darker stuff?

Why does it matter so much to you? Why can't you just give us the mass composition of your dust and stop playing qualitative nonsense ping-pong?

No, we don't see anything but dust in your god-awful, blurry photographs. I've taken better pictures with a pinhole camera.
 
The steel columns resulted in about a 1 second increase in collapse time. This number is small because any section of steel column could only resisted collapse until it broke, which happens at a relatively small compression. For the majority of the collapse, therefore, the steel columns were offering no resistance; each section only offered resistance for the brief period of time between impact and failure.

There is another component to the collapse time due to conservation of momentum in inelastic collisions between the upper block and stationary parts of the lower structure; in effect, the lower block had to accelerate debris from the lower structure as it fell, and this decelerated the upper block. This added about another three seconds to the collapse time. It didn't add any more because the upper block was very much heavier than each floor it encountered.

For some reason, Judy Wood believes the upper block had to stop dead every time it encountered any part of the structure below. This is laughably absurd and violates the law of conservation of momentum, but is the reason why her calculation suggests that the collapse time should have been a minute or more. Calculations based on an understanding of the laws of physics, rather than a deliberate attempt to misinterpret them, give collapse times of typically 12-16 seconds depending on assumptions. And, as I've said before, this agrees very well with the observed collapse time.

What's ironic is that, if the buildings had turned to dust and then fallen, they would have fallen more quickly than was observed, because then there would literally be no resistance. The 5 seconds or do by which the towers fell more slowly than freefall is disproof, not proof, of the dustification fantasy.

I prefer not to use the word "theory" for such inane trash.

Dave

It's not my work (again), but Judy doesn't say the floors had to stop. She dismisses the entire idea of floors falling. What she says is that, in an idealized model that doesn't actually include floors at all or steel support beams, that the timing of such a fall can be explored mathematically.

Her billiard ball example is brilliant. Brilliant billiard balls! Woo. It sets up an artificial condition that could never be achieved in reality in order to isolate one particular value "minumum fall time". Her conclusion is that the actual fall time was much less than could reasonably be expected by a gravity-collapse model. She didn't ever specify how much time a gravity-collapse model would take, but the abstract billiard ball example gave a result greater than a minute...with no resistance from steel beams, which would have slowed any collapse.

That the buildings were destroyed in such a short time is evidence that the wave of destruction traveled down (and up) the building at a particular rate.
 
What's ironic is that, if the buildings had turned to dust and then fallen, they would have fallen more quickly than was observed, because then there would literally be no resistance. The 5 seconds or do by which the towers fell more slowly than freefall is disproof, not proof, of the dustification fantasy.

I prefer not to use the word "theory" for such inane trash.

Dave


How fast does dust fall? Air resistance plays a role with less dense material.
 
Let me be quite clear, as you set up your little perfection fallacy:

You have tardily agreed that fire does cause weakening of steel structures.

Are you now claiming that such weakening cannot lead to widescale collapse?

Maybe it could lead to widescale collapse. I'm not debating that. I'm telling you that the WTC did not collapse at all and that what really happened is that it got turned into dust while it was standing there.

Did any steel building have this happen to it, under any circumstances of fire? Airplanes have crashed into buildings, and nothing like this happened, and plus you could find the airplane after it was all over. Doesn't make sense.
 
Actually the first thing to prove is that all the steel that was collected did not actually exist. This implicates a lot of people in this supposed cover-up.

I don't know how I could possibly prove that they didn't collect what they said they collected.

All I can say is that the damage seen on 9/11 is inconsistent with an airplane crash and resulting fire.
 
Coal seam fires can last for years underground because, like ground zero, there is plenty of fuel available.

Every vehicle buried under the towers was a potential fire started. From batteries arcing and gas tanks rupturing with sparks from shifting debris. I find your view of ground zero disturbing. You don't seem to grasp the randomness of the pile and the hazards it possessed.

I personally (as a New Yorker) think you don't live anywhere near the Tri-State Area let alone Battery Park.


Does anyone live in Battery Park? I live in the Battery Park City area near Ground Zero.
 
This.

So I repeat:

I suggest everybody stop replying to Dusty until she kicks that attitude and tells us all that she knows about that dirt heap. And then some.

You are being set up by a performance artist.

Not at all. I've shown you two pictures that are unavailable anywhere else, but you won't comment on those. Why should I give you everything at once?

I want you to pay attention to the features that I want you to pay attention to. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, a boycott is fine with me. I'll tell Bill, I guess, and a few others.
 
No. You have studied it for 9 years. Present your results now.



Yes you can. Do it now. Everything else is unacceptable.



Everybody: Please demand that Dusty present ALL the information she has about that dirt heap. Do not discuss anything else. Make sure that no information about that dust will ever be discussed by anyone except for the complete data and analysis that Dusty will provide in her next post.

It's impossible to put 9 years of research into a single post on JREF, and I don't plan to anyway. My best stuff is what I'm showing you right now. If you don't like it, fine, but I think it's neat.
 
You mean that for the first time in human history these pictures are on the interwebs? How can this be?

Because I just posted them to the interwebs, and I had them taken myself. Do you think I stole these images from someone else and are presenting them as my own? I don't see a reason for your incredulity on this point.
 
The only thing being dug here Dusty, is your grave yet again. Judy Wood is a crackpot, that does the same thing you do, make fantastic claims of dustification of steel, but refuse to answer questions, and define things that cut to the heart of your delusion. Claims of the building fell to fast, the steel should have held it up. You do realize the buildings were 95% air, once collapse initiated there wasn't much there to stop it. Dig it?

Trust me it won't take 1500 posts for everyone here to lose interest in your fraudulent claims. You have already proven you have no understanding of basic physics. The fact remains that you have no chain of custody on this fairy dust, so honestly, your fantasies are not relevant to me, or probably anyone else here. We know the steel was not turned to dust.

As far as I know, though, Dr. Wood doesn't have any physical samples of the WTC dust. Not to say she isn't great at what she does. Just saying I have something original to contribute.
 
Before we speculate what can or cannot turn steel into dust, why don't we sit back and wait till Dusty has presented ALL of her analysis and results of all the studies she did on that heap of dirt from exhibit A?

Let's not chase moving goal posts. The heap of damp dirt has been sitting there untouched for over 1000 posts. Time to cut to the heart of it.

Dusty, bring it on!

Why do you expect me to show you all of it before you've commented reasonably on what I have shown you? I don't think you'd appreciate it. I might actually give up on this forum if I can't even get you to look at my data slides.
 
Why does it matter so much to you? Why can't you just give us the mass composition of your dust and stop playing qualitative nonsense ping-pong?

No, we don't see anything but dust in your god-awful, blurry photographs. I've taken better pictures with a pinhole camera.

:-)

The mass composition isn't what I want to talk about at the moment. I want to talk about the macroscopic appearance and structure. The macroscopic structure of the dust (and not the microscopic structure) is what proves that airplane crashes didn't do it. So I want you to focus on the macroscopic structure of the dust.


Also, the appearance in situ is important here. Some of you have already begun to ask questions like, "How do you know it was WTC dust?" and this is a beginning of an answer to that question.

Those are the two images I've shown you. At least it's more than zero.
 
Why do you expect me to show you all of it before you've commented reasonably on what I have shown you? I don't think you'd appreciate it. I might actually give up on this forum if I can't even get you to look at my data slides.
It's been commented on. None of the samples you've shown contain metal (well, maybe traces but no more.)
 
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Maybe it could lead to widescale collapse. I'm not debating that. I'm telling you that the WTC did not collapse at all and that what really happened is that it got turned into dust while it was standing there.

Did any steel building have this happen to it, under any circumstances of fire? Airplanes have crashed into buildings, and nothing like this happened, and plus you could find the airplane after it was all over. Doesn't make sense.

Steel does not turn to dust, that is an insane idiotic claim. More insane since you offer zero evidence and zero facts on how steel turned to dust. Steel turning to dust on 911 is failed fantasy.

The plane did what a plane would do when it hits a building like the WTC. The landing gear was found exactly where it would land after crashing through the WTC. And engine was exactly where it would be after crashing through the WTC.

1westRectorStreet.jpg

Oops, part of a plane, not dust.
Steel from the WTC...
steelstuffWTC.jpg

Not dust, how did you mess up so bad? All the steel was found and scraped. Paid for by the pound, there are real records. Some one paid for the scrap. The dust was hazardous, so you can't sell dust, or can you? You never did specify what Steel dust is made of or how it turned to dust.

The plane on 911 hit with the energy of 1300 to 2093 pounds of TNT, this means there are not going to be large parts left over, sorry you and physics are not on a reality based relationship.
f4s.jpg


Think the flight on 911 were going faster, what do you think?

wtcengine4.jpg

An engine which went through the WTC. The evidence makes your claim nonsensical.

In your failed delusion, what happen to the plane? Oops, more parts can be found in other threads which make your claim a lie.
 
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How are we supposed to comment on the structure of the dust when the quality of the photos is so poor? I wasn't kidding when I said I've taken better photos with my phone while blacked out.
 
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