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WTC dust

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I'd just like to see him acknowledge that the piles also go 6 stories underground and are not "flat".

There are thousands of pictures that confirm this.

Triforcharity: In your last picture it looks like the truck was getting it's water from an underground source. Did you guy's have to run new supplies?

It is getting water from some underground source. IIRC, there were water guys who would find a pipe underground that was undamaged, and figure out a way to get water to it.

We didn't run new line that I am aware of, but I do know that the water department was working day and night to get us more water.
 
Why do you use the word "dustified"? Seems like you've been reading Dr. Wood's website!

Scene 1: Huge buildings, made of billions of pounds of steel.

Wrong.

Scene 2: Dust in large amounts spread all over lower Manhattan

So? There were plenty of things in the towers which could have been easily turned to dust without invoking some imaginary laser from outer space.

and a pile of steel that isn't much taller than 2 stories tall.

Prove that the pile wasn't much higher than two stories tall.

Provide calculations showing it should have been much higher.


You have nothing.
 
It would be better for you to find these papers on your own and study them, as I have. Don't ask me to support and defend other people's work. I'm talking about my own work, and I will defend that.

What would "my own work" consist of?
 
Why do you use the word "dustified"? Seems like you've been reading Dr. Wood's website!

Scene 1: Huge buildings, made of billions of pounds of steel.
Scene 2: Dust in large amounts spread all over lower Manhattan, and a pile of steel that isn't much taller than 2 stories tall.

You have to punch your brain into submission in order to fail to notice this connection.

I have posted no less than 4 images that show piles more than 2 stories tall.

Why do yo insist on this canard lie?
 
It would be better for you to find these papers on your own and study them, as I have. Don't ask me to support and defend other people's work. I'm talking about my own work, and I will defend that.

Can you please link us to your work? I would love to read it.

Can you at least tell us what kind of tools you used in your analysis?
 
It would be better for you to find these papers on your own and study them, as I have. Don't ask me to support and defend other people's work. I'm talking about my own work, and I will defend that.
Did you present your work somewhere? If you did and I missed it I'm sorry. Can you link me to it?
 

PRECOGNITION is a paranormal claim. Not appropriate for a JREF forum.

I looked at the article. Here's some complaints I have.

RMackey: The test is simple: Do beam weapons of this magnitude exist? No.

WTCdust: How were you able to determine that these weapons do not exist?

RMackey: The beam weapon must fire from almost directly above its target, and must do so unseen.

WTCdust: These are assertions, not facts. The beam weapon could have been anywhere. Also, the weapon doesn't have to be unseen, although, to escape detection, it must be at least disguised.

RMackey: Recall that not one tower was destroyed, but two.
WTCdust: In any other city, WTC 7 would have been considered a skyscraper. Why ignore this building, and WTC 3, 4, 5, 6 and the Deutsche Bank, and the WFC and the Millenium Hotel and Century 21? Whatever theory you might be working on will be incomplete if it doesn't account for all of the damage seen.

RMackey: 2. Beam Energy The beam must be capable of delivering a WTC-finishing blow in roughly 10 seconds.
WTCdust: True.

The rest of RMackey's post is piled on his earlier incorrect assumptions, and is not a debunking of Dr. Wood's theory. You have to at least discuss her theory in order to debunk it, and RMackey didn't do that. He talked about his own assumptions, not hers.
 
Here is the debunking of Judy Wood's theory, thanks to R Mackey:

A mathematician will be quick to point out that any arbitrary surface can be described by a collection of "circles" ("balls," we used to call them) of arbitrary diameter. Unless you can find a single size that fits perfectly, which you can't, you've proven nothing that geometrists haven't known for centuries.

Anyway -- seems we're still thinking about those pesky beam weapons, despite having shown you much less sinister mechanisms that provide the same "round holes," and are in fact completely consistent with the expected building performance. We've also shown you how your Star Wars weapon actually doesn't fit the "evidence" that you (and only you) see.

Still, elsewhere, you've insisted that we treat this as a valid hypothesis. It must be tested, you say.

The test is simple: Do beam weapons of this magnitude exist? No.

Still doubting, eh?

In that case, class, pull up a chair. Today we're going to design our own WTC Killing Beam Weapon of Doom to see just what one would look like. While the beam emitter itself could plausibly be a "black" project, something the Governmint doesn't want us to see, it would be dependent on much more mundane technologies -- launch vehicles, power systems, that kind of thing -- and still restrained by the laws of physics. While we may not know anything about the weapon itself, we can figure out the rest.

So suppose an unsmiling man in a grey suit delivers a magical beam weapon to us, and insists we make it functional. All we know are its requirements. Some of these we can divine from what we saw on Sept. 11th.

1. Orbit

The beam weapon must fire from almost directly above its target, and must do so unseen. If it fired at an angle, the beam -- allegedly capable of destroying the WTC towers -- would have cut through at an angle, leaving a quite interesting damage path, one that was not seen on TV. Likewise, TV cameras did not capture any blimps or dirigibles or large aircraft hovering high above the Towers. Thus, we assume the beam system was orbital.

There are basically two choices for an orbital system: LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and GEO (Geosynchronous) or similar orbits. Both of these orbits have problems.

Recall that not one tower was destroyed, but two. The South Tower fell at 9:59 AM, and the North Tower fell at 10:28. In LEO, the orbital period is a function of altitude, and the spacecraft orbits faster as it gets lower. However, the minimum usable orbit is about 90 minutes long. If the two different firings suggested happened on successive orbits, i.e. 29 minutes apart, the spacecraft altitude would have been below sea level. This is impossible.

If the two firings occurred on the same orbit, we now require a much, much higher orbit. A true GEO orbit won't work either, since you only remain geostationary above the equator, otherwise the spacecraft will appear to oscillate north and south while retaining the same longitude. We need a firing angle that is just about straight down and stays that way for 30 minutes, or 1/48th of an orbit. A GEO track would move by a minimum of 7.5% of peak latitude, or over 1.6o of latitude, which may be unacceptable. So we would need to be much, much higher than GEO.

The high-orbit situation is also impractical for two military reasons. First, high orbits require much larger rockets. Second, it severely limits your options, since it could take hours, days, or even forever to orient this beam on a particular target.

The only practical solution, then, is to have two beam weapon satellites. We will assume these are orbiting in the cheapest orbit possible, i.e. LEO.

2. Beam Energy

The beam must be capable of delivering a WTC-finishing blow in roughly 10 seconds. How much energy are we talking about?

To make this exercise remotely plausible, we will consider a firing energy much lower than the tower destruction itself. For sake of argument, suppose the beam delivers 6.0 x 109 Joules of energy -- a number chosen because it is twice that of the aircraft impact kinetic energy, as calculated in Greening (pg. 10). This is an arbitrary choice but clearly a beam energy higher than the impacts is needed, since the impacts alone finished off neither structure.

We further assume that the beam weapon is 50% efficient, an "ideal" figure (cutting-edge lasers built for efficiency are typically around 16% efficient). This means a total of 1.2 x 1010 Joules of energy must be supplied by the spacecraft, over a period of 10 seconds, or 1.2 x 109 Watts of power. That is the design requirement of our black-box beam weapon.

It should be pointed out that we have neglected many efficiency-robbing problems to arrive at this figure -- attenuation by the atmosphere, for instance, and beam absorption or reflection by the target are both major concerns. In practice I would not be surprised to see an effective beam efficiency as low as 5% under ideal conditions.

3. Energy Storage

As this power figure is roughly equivalent to the output of a commercial nuclear power plant, it is clear that our WKBWD satellite cannot provide this continuously, but must store the energy. This poses a big problem.

The most obvious solution is battery power. The highest energy density rechargeable batteries currently envisioned (and these have not been qualified for space) can supply about 1 MJ / kg of battery mass. To supply the 1.2 x 1010 Joules we require, this means 12,000 kg of battery.

But this figure cannot be trusted. Recall that we require a full discharge in only ten seconds. Batteries don't like this. They heat up, which increases their internal resistance and robs power, and chemical pathways become blocked, making much of its storage unavailable. Given this requirement, our battery size would need to be much larger -- Lithium ion batteries over 20 second peak load are limited to a mere 1500 W/kg. Since our beam requires 1.2 x 109 Watts, we would actually need 8,000 tons of battery.

So batteries are out. What about capacitors? If we assume a spacecraft bus voltage of 1000 Volts (which is unacceptably high for space applications, as arcing would probably destroy our satellite), to reach our total energy requirement, E = 0.5 C V2, thus capacitance C = 24,000 Farads. This can be done with, say, ten tons of capacitors, however the leakage will be much higher -- rather than charging batteries over periods of weeks, the capacitors will require a much more rapid charge cycle, and any weight saved in the capacitors themselves will be lost to solar arrays and thermal management.

The very last possibility is the extreme explosive compression flux generator, basically a one-shot motor that uses explosives to push a magnet and a coil. This is similarly "black" and exciting to Conspiracy Theorists, but not practical here either. While this little gadget can crank out a reported 1012 Watts, it only does so for a few microseconds. To sustain our ten-second beam, we would need about a million small copies of this, and they would have to somehow be shielded from each other. Alternatively, if we convinced the beam weapon designers to change their beam, so that it fired one extremely rapid pulse, we would only need a few thousand of these.

In either case, the beam weapon would have to handle several million Amps of current, and somehow convert this into a useful, collimated beam. If anybody has any ideas how to do this, let me know. The best I can think of is a microwave waveguide -- but the biggest of these is Arecibo, it's four orders of magnitude weaker than we'd need, and it would clearly be seen orbiting the Earth!

We also have a another stealth problem. If we generate a 1.2 x 1010 Joule energy pulse, that means we're setting off much more than 1.2 x 1010 Joules worth of explosives, or 3 tons TNT equivalent, in orbit. This can be done, provided we don't mind creating a flash in the upper atmosphere that would be clearly visible to the naked eye in full daylight, and provided we don't mind alerting the early warning systems of every nuclear-armed government in the process.

4. Launch Considerations

Each of our proposed solutions above requires a satellite that masses over 10 tons for energy storage or generation above. Since the thermal control, solar generation, attitude control, and payload are also assumed to be significant, we may assume the power storage is reasonably close to a standard satellite MEL (Mass Equipment List) breakdown, and is thus around 10-25% of the total satellite mass. We thus estimate our spacecraft minimum mass is around 40 tons.

This exceeds the launch capability of any current launch vehicle -- almost double that of the Shuttle -- although Saturn V could do it.

Needless to say, this also isn't a good consideration for stealth.

Any other launch would require on-orbit assembly, and a rather complicated one at that. The extremely high-power storage and supply would have to be bridged. Pointing on the beam weapon would be critical, requiring utmost precision.

Lastly, this would mean that our astronauts are also members of the conspiracy.

5. Conclusion

Orbital beam weapons, even if the beam technology itself was sound, are not practical as tools of overt domination or covert destruction of land-based targets. There is simply no way to generate the power required to destroy hardened structures, let alone destroy them so thoroughly as to remove evidence of the beam weapon's use. In legitimate studies, beam weapons have only been considered in cases where a much lower power (1 MW or less) can achieve a useful result, such as damaging fragile sensors or puncturing thin-walled critical structures, e.g. the booster of an ICBM.

The fundamental roadblock is the ability to put power on the ground. As we saw above, the only credible approach is to use expendables, viz. explosives. In this case, the orbiting beam weapon offers no advantages over simply putting those same explosives on target. The difficulty and cost associated with the orbiting platform, coupled with the nonexistence of high performance beam emitters to begin with, makes this a complete non-starter.
 
It is getting water from some underground source. IIRC, there were water guys who would find a pipe underground that was undamaged, and figure out a way to get water to it.

We didn't run new line that I am aware of, but I do know that the water department was working day and night to get us more water.
Thanks, I'm sure getting water to where it was needed was a major problem, What with all the jagged metal and heavy equipment running around laying hose on any level ground would be impossible.

Anyway enough of this sidetrack. :)
 
What I see as very suspicious is the amount of dust.
Suspicious if it hadn't happened on 9/11, if no planes had impacted the buildings at 400+ mph.
But of course, you don't think planes actually hit the towers, probably....Just a guess.



What happened to all that drywall and such when the planes impacted? It all stayed intact, I guess, along with the SFRM, insulation etc....

You do realize the dust has been analyzed for content? It wasn't mostly iron or steel, unfortunately for your theory. What is your theory? What was the process you claim? What would you expect to find?
YOu don't really have a coherent theory, do you? But read on and find out what the dust really was......

'The USGS Study

A study by the US Geological Survey (USGS) provides some analytical detail missing from the above study. It lists the elemental composition of a number of dust samples collected from outdoor and indoor locations. 3 The following table summarizes the percentages by weight of the more abundant elements in samples for which sulfur was measured.

sample element: percentage by weight
Si Ca Mg S Fe Al
WTC 01-02 21.20 15.01 3.11 1.33 4.13 4.13
WTC 01-03 26.30 9.58 2.23 0.87 2.16 2.75
WTC 01-14 15.30 17.65 2.83 4.32 1.87 2.86
WTC 01-15 13.60 18.58 2.64 5.40 1.87 2.59
WTC 01-16 17.00 13.36 1.79 3.68 1.92 2.27
WTC 01-21 12.80 18.94 2.68 5.10 1.49 2.73
WTC 01-22 17.00 16.80 2.77 3.70 2.78 2.78
WTC 01-25 13.20 20.37 3.29 4.03 1.33 3.28
WTC 01-27 15.20 19.51 3.04 4.29 1.72 3.05
WTC 01-28 13.80 19.65 2.83 4.56 1.80 2.95
Gypsum, the primary constituent of most wallboard, has the formula CaSO4-2(H20), and is 18.62% sulfur and 23.38% calcium by weight. 4 Gypsum is also about 5% of portland cement, the binder used in most concrete and constituting. Since aggregate constitutes between 70% and 80% of most concrete, gypsum might account for 1% to 1.5% of the concrete in the towers'

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/dust.html


Keep flapping around, seems like you are wont to do it. It won't change the facts. Flap all you like, squawk all you like, it won't make your fantasy come true.


What you are missing is that there is more than one kind of dust.
Some of the dust is almost white in color. Most of it is gray. Some of it is very dark gray. Just like the different colors of fumes coming from Ground Zero.

http://howitwasdone911.blogspot.com/2010/03/two-colors-of-smoke-after-9112001.html

Peter Jennings failed to discuss the two colors of smoke rising from the rubble. R.I.P. Peter Jennings, but really a reporter should note obvious things like that. He failed to do so probably because two different colors of fumes doesn't match up to airplane crashes, or any one single process, and that is hard to wrap your mind around when you are suffering trauma.
 
PRECOGNITION is a paranormal claim. Not appropriate for a JREF forum.

I looked at the article. Here's some complaints I have.

RMackey: The test is simple: Do beam weapons of this magnitude exist? No.

WTCdust: How were you able to determine that these weapons do not exist?

Mackey explained why in terms of physics fundamentals. You appear to not know any physics.

You are a fraud.
 
You can't post the formula for kinetic energy means you are not a scientist and more.

Steel that changes from Fe to something that is dust, what elements are in the dust that was once Fe?

Beachnut: You're so confused. A fifth grader could probably find the equation for kinetic energy and post it here. If I did, it wouldn't prove anything.

As for being a scientist, I can see how this assertion would be key in your attempts to debunk me. But since I am actually a research scientist, you'll have to try something else.
 
Yes. The RJ Lee Group did an analysis of the WTC dust that had settled in and on the Deutsche Bank Building (130 Liberty Street, right across the street from Ground Zero). You find the report here:
http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 ...ignature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf

The EPA analysed the dust that settled around Manhattan. Check out their site:
http://www.epa.gov/wtc/panel/backdocs.html

Frank Greening has looked at the energy available and necessary to crush the concrete of the towers in several papers, one of them here:
http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf

Niels Harrit, Steven Jones e.al. analysed several dust samples, but concentrated on some paint chips.


Bottom line is: Steel dust was not found by anyone in significant amounts. The potential energy of the towers was sufficient to create the observed amount and particle size distribution of dust.

I don't dispute any of the studies of the dust. I'm pointing out that they all miss the point that there wasn't one type of dust. There were several different types of dust, some of which were metallic.

The potential energy of the building was due to gravity, and gravity isn't a sufficient explanation for all that dust. Your theory has concrete floors falling twelve feet (not much kinetic energy in a twelve foot fall). Also, your theory doesn't effectively discuss how these floors began to fall.

It's actually a mishmash, your theory. Floors didn't fall. By the time anything began to fall, it was already dust.
 
PRECOGNITION is a paranormal claim. Not appropriate for a JREF forum.

You certainly ignored the main points of the post.

I looked at the article. Here's some complaints I have.

RMackey: The test is simple: Do beam weapons of this magnitude exist? No.

WTCdust: How were you able to determine that these weapons do not exist?

RMackey: The beam weapon must fire from almost directly above its target, and must do so unseen.

WTCdust: These are assertions, not facts. The beam weapon could have been anywhere. Also, the weapon doesn't have to be unseen, although, to escape detection, it must be at least disguised.

Mackey explained why it must be done from above. If you disagree, explain why. Otherwise the point stands.

RMackey: Recall that not one tower was destroyed, but two.
WTCdust: In any other city, WTC 7 would have been considered a skyscraper. Why ignore this building, and WTC 3, 4, 5, 6 and the Deutsche Bank, and the WFC and the Millenium Hotel and Century 21? Whatever theory you might be working on will be incomplete if it doesn't account for all of the damage seen.

Are you actually too dumb to see that this is actually a point against you? If you want your imaginary laser to account for damage to those buildings it just makes the scenario that much more difficult.


The rest of RMackey's post is piled on his earlier incorrect assumptions, and is not a debunking of Dr. Wood's theory. You have to at least discuss her theory in order to debunk it, and RMackey didn't do that. He talked about his own assumptions, not hers.

But Judy Wood doesn't even have a theory. All she says is that DEW did it. As other posters have said she refuses to state where the weapon was, what type of energy was used, how much energy was used, ect. Mackey's calculations were actually extremely generous. A weapon that would destroy the WTC would actually have to be much more powerful than he calculated.

I suppose it is true that nobody has debunked you hero's theory. But that is only because she has not produced one. And she hasn't produced one because she cannot.

Anybody who believes some kind of giant laser destroyed the WTC is insane.
 
What was it after, if it wasn't steel anymore?



Well, can YOU think of a process that can turn steel into dust without anybody noticing the tool you use? If so, please explain!


The only person who comes close is Dr. Judy Wood, and I'm willing to dump her theory as soon as it is debunked.
 
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