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WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

Ziggi said:
...He was the last bastion of the chance for a reasonable discussion on this forum.

I will not waste time arguing about this on this forum, but it is about time that I write up an article for Talboo´s blog about Ivan´s experiment.
Click to expand...

Ziggi said:
...This forum had its chance when Millette was still thinking about publishing, but that ship has sailed.

I am not going to argue about this on the forum, but maybe I´ll time to write up a post for the blog..
Click to expand...


Ziggi played for time, jiving us that we were voodoo :g1:
 
Ziggi said:
As for Ivan and his experiment, the last thing anyone needs to know is that I personally made the effort to offer him to join forces with the Mark Basile chips study to confirm his alleged finding. I asked him to send Basile a sample of his burned paint for EDS analysis, and to send him some unburned chips as well. He refused.

I will not waste time arguing about this on this forum, but it is about time that I write up an article for Talboo´s blog about Ivan´s experiment.
Click to expand...

Ziggi, although we are all starting to realise you are an expert in everything you need to realise Ivan's comments are clearly written on his rusted paint experiment. There is really no need to just repeat what he has said.

As for why you think Ivan would have needed to send his rusted paint chips to Basile is rather amusing. I can only assume that you are under the impression that rusted paint attracted by a magnet do not exist in your part of the world ?

As for running to Talboos blog shows you are only comfortable in an imaginary world where you can play God. Enjoy the pleasure you get from listening to yourself.
 
Ziggi said:
You don´t know what you are talking about. Thermite can leave a wide variety of spheres behind, including iron and partially reduced iron-oxide, and all kinds of iron-oxide-aluminum compounds and mixtures.

The ignition of the chips in air would not help anyone fake a thermite result, and your post does sort of reveal the reason: If you are trying to show that your sample is going through a thermite reaction it would be better to eliminate the presence of air, to prevent a normal burn from occurring, that is the oxidation.

If you actually study the data you can see that Harrit finds typical post ignition spheres with a 2 to 1 FE to O ratio, and others with up to 4 to 1. Even with the 2 to 1 ratio the presence of pure iron is evident, along with some iron-oxide.

You should be a little more careful about what you say. This forum had its chance when Millette was still thinking about publishing, but that ship has sailed.

I am not going to argue about this on the forum, but maybe I´ll time to write up a post for the blog..

Have a nice day.
Click to expand...

And you have personally tested thermite and nano
Thermite to see which speres are actually evidence that a.thermite reaction.has taken place?

Might I remind you that paint pigments start out as ball milled FeO Fe3O4. Nano spheres they can also contain trace Fe contamination.
Just from the manufacturing processes that produce them.
 
Spanx said:
Ziggi, although we are all starting to realise you are an expert in everything you need to realise Ivan's comments are clearly written on his rusted paint experiment. There is really no need to just repeat what he has said.

As for why you think Ivan would have needed to send his rusted paint chips to Basile is rather amusing. I can only assume that you are under the impression that rusted paint attracted by a magnet do not exist in your part of the world ?6

As for running to Talboos blog shows you are only comfortable in an imaginary world where you can play God. Enjoy the pleasure you get from listening to yourself.
Click to expand...

Would Basile like some of mine a have a few billion
Micro spheres as well as macro spheres still left over from my
Experiments into microsphere formation.
Including from paint chips.
The only ones of significant interest as I stated are
The near solid fe spheres.
Those do not usually form in fires, so fire combustion
Can be ruled out as a source for them.
 
For my own reasons, I don't generally write to Ziggi any more, but here is my admittedly very limited understanding of this argument for the sake of the rest of us:
1) If I remember correctly, Ivan was hoping to measure the iron content of his potential spheres but didn't live long enough to do so. At least that's what I got from our correspondences.
2) I did talk to an experienced forensic metallurgist 18 months ago or so, who has analyzed fire debris and has said he doesn't find iron-rich spheres in the fires he has studied.
3) Again, I am no expert, but it does seem that there are hollow iron-oxide spheres and iron-rich microspheres, created by different processes.
4) Two Fire chemists have told me that while bulk temperatures can be well below the melting point of iron, laser thermometers can find tiny pockets of temperatures in ordinary fires that far exceed the melting point of steel, and actually come close to the adiabatic temperature (theoretical high limit) of the burning materials. If a tiny flake of rust hits a near-adiabatic micro-pocket, it can create an iron-rich microsphere with iron oxide reduction.
5) Take two rusty cannonballs, cover one in aluminum foil, strike them together with a glancing blow, and you get an actual mini-thermite reaction. Whenever aluminum and iron oxide collided during the Towers' collapses, a thermite reaction could have occurred on a very small scale.
6) A question for Chainsaw: the claim that there are no iron-rich spheres before the chips' ignition and then abundant spheres after ignition of the red-grey chips contradicts your claim that they are there all along. I've been inclined to believe they are not there pre-ignition. Am I wrong?
I wish Ivan were around. I was interested in his experiment but I don't think it went far enough to prove iron-rich microspheres. It was a work in progress, worth a look-see but to my limited view not "admissible" as evidence. I also liked the guy. He sure had a better sense of humor than me!
 
Ziggi said:
If you actually study the data you can see that Harrit finds typical post ignition spheres with a 2 to 1 FE to O ratio, and others with up to 4 to 1. Even with the 2 to 1 ratio the presence of pure iron is evident, along with some iron-oxide
Click to expand...

1. Can you explain why Millette found non-thermtic red/gray chips attracted to a magnet when Harrit's paper concludes that all red/gray chips attracted to a magent should be thermitic material?

2. Can you explain why Harrit claims all four samples contained thermitic red/gray chips, but only tested 3 samples in a DSC test?

3. Can you explain why Harrit didn't test paint chips he had from the dust samples and instead tested OTHER types of paints in his tests?

4. Can you explain why Harrit had to use tabulated resistivity results from an outside source instead of gathering resistivity results himself using paint chips he had from the dust samples?

5. Can you explain why Harrit did not make mention in his paper of the chips that didn't ignite as talked about by him in a later video?

My biggest question is why did Harrit not examine the red/gray paint chips he had in the same dust that the supposed red/gray thermitic chips were located and compare the composition and results between the two.

Very suspicious if you ask me.
 
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chrismohr said:
...
6) A question for Chainsaw: the claim that there are no iron-rich spheres before the chips' ignition and then abundant spheres after ignition of the red-grey chips contradicts your claim that they are there all along. I've been inclined to believe they are not there pre-ignition. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Abundant? How abundant? Has this been quantified in any way, shape or form? I can establish a numerical lower bound for the required abundance of elemental iron in the chip residue if there was a significant thermite reaction, with only one assumption concerning the word "significant":

There was one chip that had a measured energy density of 7.5 kJ/g. As we all know, that alone proves that more than half the energy output came from some other exotherm reaction(s), and less than half was provided by thermite.
My assumption is: To call a material "thermitic", let's require that the thermite reaction proper provide a "significant" proportion of the total heat - and let's define "significant" as "at least 5%".
In this case, that would be 5% of 7.5 kJ/g = 0.375 kJ/g.
With thermite's maximum energy yield of 3.96 kJ/g, this is equivalent of thermite being at least 9.5% of the chip's mass. The thermite products, Al2O3 + 2 Fe, are 52.3% by weight iron, so we should expect to find more than 5.0% by weight elemental iron in the residue - and almost as much Al-oxide.

(In fact, both should be a lot more plentiful, given that the organic matrix that makes up much of the red layer burns off and produces gases that escape the residue.)

It appears to me that they found at best traces of elemental iron. The ATM paper shows exactly one (1) microparticle which may be partially reduced iron oxide. I see no evidence at all that spheres, iron-rich enough to warrant the assumpion that some of the iron oxide therein has been reduced, are "abundant" in the residues.
chrismohr said:
I wish Ivan were around. I was interested in his experiment but I don't think it went far enough to prove iron-rich microspheres. It was a work in progress, worth a look-see but to my limited view not "admissible" as evidence. I also liked the guy. He sure had a better sense of humor than me!
Click to expand...
+1!
 
chrismohr said:
For my own reasons, I don't generally write to Ziggi any more, but here is my admittedly very limited understanding of this argument for the sake of the rest of us:
1) If I remember correctly, Ivan was hoping to measure the iron content of his potential spheres but didn't live long enough to do so. At least that's what I got from our correspondences.
2) I did talk to an experienced forensic metallurgist 18 months ago or so, who has analyzed fire debris and has said he doesn't find iron-rich spheres in the fires he has studied.
3) Again, I am no expert, but it does seem that there are hollow iron-oxide spheres and iron-rich microspheres, created by different processes.
4) Two Fire chemists have told me that while bulk temperatures can be well below the melting point of iron, laser thermometers can find tiny pockets of temperatures in ordinary fires that far exceed the melting point of steel, and actually come close to the adiabatic temperature (theoretical high limit) of the burning materials. If a tiny flake of rust hits a near-adiabatic micro-pocket, it can create an iron-rich microsphere with iron oxide reduction.
5) Take two rusty cannonballs, cover one in aluminum foil, strike them together with a glancing blow, and you get an actual mini-thermite reaction. Whenever aluminum and iron oxide collided during the Towers' collapses, a thermite reaction could have occurred on a very small scale.
6) A question for Chainsaw: the claim that there are no iron-rich spheres before the chips' ignition and then abundant spheres after ignition of the red-grey chips contradicts your claim that they are there all along. I've been inclined to believe they are not there pre-ignition. Am I wrong?
I wish Ivan were around. I was interested in his experiment but I don't think it went far enough to prove iron-rich microspheres. It was a work in progress, worth a look-see but to my limited view not "admissible" as evidence. I also liked the guy. He sure had a better sense of humor than me!
Click to expand...

Thin sheet aluminum burning in air contacting iron oxide,
Can cause a thermitic reaction if the material is in motion in a blast front created by CO1, Or as basile has shown paint chips Ignite
And ignite aluminum dust or splattered aluminum.
I can offer multiple sinarios such as the Oxidation. Of
Sulfur from Fe3O4 reduction.
However Harrit is lumping all the microsperes together
As Iron rich, the Fe3O4 with the Fe.
I see no true quanitive data in his work.
No attempt to eliminate possible sources.
By far contamination of a sight by humand transported microsheres is the most likely source.

In answer to your question Chris,
How would you know without destroying
The chip, I do not see any detailed analisis microspheres
Could easily have been hidden under the Aluminum
Silicates in the epoxy.
It apears to be a baseless hand waving claim.
 
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Oystein said:
Abundant? How abundant? Has this been quantified in any way, shape or form? I can establish a numerical lower bound for the required abundance of elemental iron in the chip residue if there was a significant thermite reaction, with only one assumption concerning the word "significant":

There was one chip that had a measured energy density of 7.5 kJ/g. As we all know, that alone proves that more than half the energy output came from some other exotherm reaction(s), and less than half was provided by thermite.
My assumption is: To call a material "thermitic", let's require that the thermite reaction proper provide a "significant" proportion of the total heat - and let's define "significant" as "at least 5%".
In this case, that would be 5% of 7.5 kJ/g = 0.375 kJ/g.
With thermite's maximum energy yield of 3.96 kJ/g, this is equivalent of thermite being at least 9.5% of the chip's mass. The thermite products, Al2O3 + 2 Fe, are 52.3% by weight iron, so we should expect to find more than 5.0% by weight elemental iron in the residue - and almost as much Al-oxide.

(In fact, both should be a lot more plentiful, given that the organic matrix that makes up much of the red layer burns off and produces gases that escape the residue.)

It appears to me that they found at best traces of elemental iron. The ATM paper shows exactly one (1) microparticle which may be partially reduced iron oxide. I see no evidence at all that spheres, iron-rich enough to warrant the assumpion that some of the iron oxide therein has been reduced, are "abundant" in the residues.

+1!
Click to expand...

Exactly there is nothing in the data that even hints
At thermite.
And no inert gas testing all unsubstanciated
Claims.
 
chrismohr said:
I wish Ivan were around. I was interested in his experiment but I don't think it went far enough to prove iron-rich microspheres. It was a work in progress, worth a look-see but to my limited view not "admissible" as evidence. I also liked the guy. He sure had a better sense of humor than me!
Click to expand...
It just boggles my mind that Harrit did not do this himself.

He knowingly had what he thought were thermitic red/gray magnetically attracted chips and other non-thermitic red/gray magnetically attracted chips that were almost visually identical.

If there were visually similar red/gray with different properties and characteristics present, then why weren't the results of the non-thermitic, yet visually similar red/gray chips not published?

How similar, property-wise, was a red/gray thermitic chip to a red/gray paint chip?

Is it assumed that the thermite concoction was mixed with the primer paint and applied to the steel or was it "painted" on separate from the primer?

Thoughts?
 
Gamolon said:
It just boggles my mind that Harrit did not do this himself.

He knowingly had what he thought were thermitic red/gray magnetically attracted chips and other non-thermitic red/gray magnetically attracted chips that were almost visually identical.

If there were visually similar red/gray with different properties and characteristics present, then why weren't the results of the non-thermitic, yet visually similar red/gray chips not published?

How similar, property-wise, was a red/gray thermitic chip to a red/gray paint chip?

Is it assumed that the thermite concoction was mixed with the primer paint and applied to the steel or was it "painted" on separate from the primer?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

All you need do is add Aluminum dust to paint,
this stuff should not even be considered nano thermite.
Nano thermite has nano Al particles, it is those
Particles that speed the reaction, not the oxide particles.
 
chrismohr said:
I wish Ivan were around. I was interested in his experiment but I don't think it went far enough to prove iron-rich microspheres.
Click to expand...

I think it went absolutely far enough, it showed that you don't need to have Wtc red/gray chips to acheive a very similar visual effect. We have yet to see what real nano thermite would even looks like. Are we to assume it would look like rusted red paint chips?

As far as I am aware the microspheres in a thermite reaction are the Sparks which are formed when passed through the air. Harrit & co's were formed while embedded in the chips just like Ivan's non thermite material.

We even have Mark Basile fizzle video which does not produce any micro spheres.

Who needs to do more experiments to satisfy the likes of Ziggy, it's fairly obvious from his posting that, shall we say he has issues that only he can deal with. If he has found followers like his friend MM and anyone else that will bow to him then good luck to him, they are the only people in this world who will listen to him.

There are all walks of life as you well know Chris. There are certain walks that we choose not to get involved with in the real world.
 
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Crazy Chainsaw said:
All you need do is add Aluminum dust to paint,
this stuff should not even be considered nano thermite.
Nano thermite has nano Al particles, it is those
Particles that speed the reaction, not the oxide particles.
Click to expand...
So how, in your opinion, does Harrit think this thermite concoction was created and then applied?

Has he ever talk about this?

Does he think thermitic elements were mixed with the primer paint and applied in the areas needed while the rest of the steel was painted with the normal primer paint? Or does he think it was a separate mixture altogether applied to certain areas while the rest of the steel was painted with primer paint?

In my opinion, based on discussions here, the results of his thermitic material differ only slightly than primer paint.

Does that indicate a mixture of primer paint and other elements to create a thermitic primer paint?

Just thinking out loud here.
 
Gamolon said:
So how, in your opinion, does Harrit think this thermite concoction was created and then applied?

Has he ever talk about this?

Does he think thermitic elements were mixed with the primer paint and applied in the areas needed while the rest of the steel was painted with the normal primer paint? Or does he think it was a separate mixture altogether applied to certain areas while the rest of the steel was painted with primer paint?

In my opinion, based on discussions here, the results of his thermitic material differ only slightly than primer paint.

Does that indicate a mixture of primer paint and other elements to create a thermitic primer paint?

Just thinking out loud here.
Click to expand...
Harrit chips are not thermitic they would
Be as harmful to steel as ordinary paint.

He thinks a combination of nano thermite and
Thermites were used but has no theory as to
How.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Thin sheet aluminum burning in air contacting iron oxide,
Can cause a thermitic reaction if the material is in motion in a blast front created by CO1, Or as basile has shown paint chips Ignite
And ignite aluminum dust or splattered aluminum.
I can offer multiple sinarios such as the Oxidation. Of
Sulfur from Fe3O4 reduction.
However Harrit is lumping all the microsperes together
As Iron rich, the Fe3O4 with the Fe.
I see no true quanitive data in his work.
No attempt to eliminate possible sources.
By far contamination of a sight by humand transported microsheres is the most likely source.

In answer to your question Chris,
How would you know without destroying
The chip, I do not see any detailed analisis microspheres
Could easily have been hidden under the Aluminum
Silicates in the epoxy.
It apears to be a baseless hand waving claim.
Click to expand...
Chainsaw, there is an experiment done by Dave Thomas (I goaded on both Ivan and Dave to do these experiments in the first place). Dave's first experiment was steel wool and a Bic lighter, which I think was inconclusive (it may have been iron oxide hollow balls and not iron-rich spheres). But his second experiment was with paint on steel beams. No iron-rich spheres until AFTER he burned the beams in a regular trashcan fire. Ziggi and others have claimed "contamination" which Dave says is very unlikely. But it appears that Dave CREATED iron-rich spheres which were not there until post-burning.
 
chrismohr said:
Chainsaw, there is an experiment done by Dave Thomas (I goaded on both Ivan and Dave to do these experiments in the first place). Dave's first experiment was steel wool and a Bic lighter, which I think was inconclusive (it may have been iron oxide hollow balls and not iron-rich spheres). But his second experiment was with paint on steel beams. No iron-rich spheres until AFTER he burned the beams in a regular trashcan fire. Ziggi and others have claimed "contamination" which Dave says is very unlikely. But it appears that Dave CREATED iron-rich spheres which were not there until post-burning.
Click to expand...

When my other tablet is done updating I will
Post a picture of a hollow.macro sphere from
Coaxial cable it is Iron rich fe 3O4 formed in fires.

Friction, and other effects in the collapses them
selves could have released and created trillions of pure
Fe micro spheres.
There is no.way to.quantify exactly how many
Would have been created in the energetic dust
and gas explosions in the collapses from the compression of air and gasses with smoldering paper. I believe I floor could have created 100, 000, 000 micro spheres in a reduction.reaction with
A combination of hydrogen, CO1, and carbon dust.
These reactions would have occured durring the
Energetic collapses they however would have
Imparted minimally to the speed of the collapses.
 
Chainsaw,
The big question I keep having then is this: why did the forensic metallurgist who understood about the iron-rich microspheres tell me that he had never found them when analyzing fire debris from regular office fires?
 
@ LSSBB: Presence or absence of iron-rich microspheres resulting from office fires would not depend much on the structural framing - it's not so much the steel that burns and produces ashes.

@ Chris: Difficult for us to guess as we haven't talked with that metallurgist. Does he routinely study ashes using visual light and electron microscopy?
 
chrismohr said:
Chainsaw,
The big question I keep having then is this: why did the forensic metallurgist who understood about the iron-rich microspheres tell me that he had never found them when analyzing fire debris from regular office fires?
Click to expand...

Acttual Iron microspheres would be rare,
In office fires with intact sprinkler systems
Or that have been actively fought by firemen.
Because water cools the fire proventing
Fine steel from melting.
 
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