Moderated WTC 1 features list, initiation model / WTC 2 features list, collapse model

The "sharp pulses" are not being caused by air/blast pressure. If they were, the smoke would be exiting much, much faster. Bernoulli insists.

Therefore, those two things are uncorrelated.

Very, very simple.

What's really going on is (a) smoke is being pushed out by something moving inside, i.e. a floor section failing, and (b) pieces are flexing due to stress, possibly also increasing due to an internal failure.

There's no explosion. No sound, no shock, no pressure pulse. Your own data proves this, if you only understood it.
 
R Mackey and Myriad, you honestly believe that natural air pressure fluctuations are causing the sharp outward punches which are clearly pushing the aluminum facade pieces outwards with considerable shock?


No, I honestly believe that the ceiling (of a particular smoke-filled storey) is descending and squeezing smoke out of the broken window apertures.

If facade pieces are moving outwards, it's because the building is collapsing, distorting the structure, and buckling certain of its members, other effects of which (such as the tilting of the columns above the initiation floor) are clearly evident in numerous images including the ones you posted.

ETA: Do you see any problem with my assessment of the relative timing of the tilt versus the smoke ejections, in the sequence of images you posted? Did I get anything wrong? Do you disagree that an inch of movement would be harder to perceive than the displacement of 1700 cubic feet of smoke that it would cause? Is there any "pulse" that is demonstrably different in nature from the smoke already emanating due to the fire itself, that occurs prior to any tilting? If so, can you point it out specifically?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Gee, got awful quiet all of a sudden...

MT,

Normally, I ignore your senseless screeds.

But, indulge me. What do you do for a living? How long have you done it?

Answer me that, and then I'll answer this post, point by point.


tom

TFK, in your last post you prove why looking at these events is important. You make so many mistakes in your observations, yet are clearly ignorant that you are making mistakes.

You have no clue what actually happened during the collapse initiation sequence and the events leading up to it. You prove it constantly by making mistakes.

Many other posters may not notice how many mistakes you make because they, like you, have absolutely no clue what actually happened during the intiation sequence.

Not only that, but when you are shown what are maybe the first correct measurements of the initiation sequence you have ever seen, you are puzzled as to why it matters.

Do you have any clue that the 95th floor ejections started earlier than the 98th fl ejections in the same gif you are looking at? It is on the features list.

How can you be so ignorant that you don't even know where the first ejections emerge in a gif that is right in front of your face??????

How many years of comments and you don't even know where the first visible ejections emerge? Please enlighten us as to why 95th floor ejections at that time are consistent with the NIST description of initiation.

You didn't even know the existed so how could you answer??

You are the perfect example as why a list of real attributes and accurate measurements are important.


The list is a list, nothing more. My claim is that the list is correct. You have yet to show one particular attribute that has been described incorrectly.

If the features on the list are correct, perhaps even a well-trained monkey can spot which attributes contradict the NIST conclusions in a fundamental way.

The number of attributes that contradict a south perimeter-led collapse on the list is a bit overwhelming. You can't figure out the differences between the NIST conclusions and the actual recorded features by yourself?

You seriously cannot figure out how the listed features contradict the NIST description of events? You hide in your own ignorance of the initiation sequence and demand I explain to you what is already clear in visual evidence and measurements?


We'll go over the features one by one if necessary.
 
Reactor Drone post 136: "I don't know whether this is part of a deliberate attempt to deceive or just a lack of effort on your part but it doesn't help your case."

Over 40 features listed, many of which you did not know existed. Lack of effort on my part? That's funny. The 2 graphs you posted are easy to use. I'll show you this weekend when I have more time.

Can anyone else not see the metal cladding being violently pushed outward in this gif?


Luigi_Cazzaniga_47.gif



R Mackey post 141: "There's no explosion. No sound, no shock, no pressure pulse. Your own data proves this, if you only understood it. "

Data is for WTC1. This image is of WTC2. I can tell you are paying attention. You cannot see the metal cladding being violently pushed outward?


Myriad post 142: "
If facade pieces are moving outwards, it's because the building is collapsing, distorting the structure, and buckling certain of its members, other effects of which (such as the tilting of the columns above the initiation floor) are clearly evident in numerous images including the ones you posted.

ETA: Do you see any problem with my assessment of the relative timing of the tilt versus the smoke ejections, in the sequence of images you posted? Did I get anything wrong? Do you disagree that an inch of movement would be harder to perceive than the displacement of 1700 cubic feet of smoke that it would cause? Is there any "pulse" that is demonstrably different in nature from the smoke already emanating due to the fire itself, that occurs prior to any tilting? If so, can you point it out specifically?"

You cannot see the metal cladding bveing violently pushed outward? There are many sharp pulses working their way towards the corner. Point out "the pulse" specifically? That is funny.


Is there any regular poster on JREF brave enough to admit they see the metal cladding being punched out out violently or will the approach be to ignore this feature also?
 
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...Can anyone else not see the metal cladding being violently pushed outward in this gif?
...?
This is where mom making me go be an engineer pays off; you are full of nonsense (the sad part, anyone with a grade school education can see you are full of nonsense and no reality based ideas on 911). I see a gravity collapse, you see some moronic paranoid conspiracy theory. You should have gone to engineering school instead of adopting idiotic delusions on 911.

The cladding is being shed due to gravity collapse of the WTC. Over 130 TONS of TNT energy being released in 20 to 30 seconds. Like bombers dropping 130 2,000 pound bombs twice! Your failure to grasp gravity, physics, and math is showing.

Where is the termite products? Or was your delusional CD based on explosives? Silent ones?
 
beach,

This is where mom making me go be an engineer pays off...

Sounds like ole Mama Beachnut is one smart lady.


BTW, A friend just sent me this story. I've always been partial to Hornets. Sometimes, in spite of themselves, ya just gotta love Jarheads…


Conversation overheard on the VHF Guard (emergency) frequency 121.5 MHz while flying from Europe to Dubai.
It's too good to not pass along . . . . .


The conversation went like this...
Iranian Air Defense Radar: 'Unknown aircraft you are in Iranian airspace. Identify yourself.'

Aircraft: 'This is a United States aircraft. I am in Iraqi airspace.'

Air Defense Radar: 'You are in Iranian airspace. If you do not depart our airspace we will launch interceptor aircraft!'

Aircraft: 'This is a United States Marine Corps FA-18 fighter. Send 'em up, I'll wait!'

Air Defense Radar: (no response .... total silence)


tom
 
Reactor Drone post 136: "I don't know whether this is part of a deliberate attempt to deceive or just a lack of effort on your part but it doesn't help your case."

Over 40 features listed, many of which you did not know existed. Lack of effort on my part? That's funny. The 2 graphs you posted are easy to use. I'll show you this weekend when I have more time.

Can anyone else not see the metal cladding being violently pushed outward in this gif?


[qimg]http://femr2.ucoz.com/Luigi_Cazzaniga_47.gif[/qimg]


R Mackey post 141: "There's no explosion. No sound, no shock, no pressure pulse. Your own data proves this, if you only understood it. "

Data is for WTC1. This image is of WTC2. I can tell you are paying attention. You cannot see the metal cladding being violently pushed outward?


Myriad post 142: "
If facade pieces are moving outwards, it's because the building is collapsing, distorting the structure, and buckling certain of its members, other effects of which (such as the tilting of the columns above the initiation floor) are clearly evident in numerous images including the ones you posted.

ETA: Do you see any problem with my assessment of the relative timing of the tilt versus the smoke ejections, in the sequence of images you posted? Did I get anything wrong? Do you disagree that an inch of movement would be harder to perceive than the displacement of 1700 cubic feet of smoke that it would cause? Is there any "pulse" that is demonstrably different in nature from the smoke already emanating due to the fire itself, that occurs prior to any tilting? If so, can you point it out specifically?"

You cannot see the metal cladding bveing violently pushed outward? There are many sharp pulses working their way towards the corner. Point out "the pulse" specifically? That is funny.


Is there any regular poster on JREF brave enough to admit they see the metal cladding being punched out out violently or will the approach be to ignore this feature also?

Have you had an education?
 
You'll excuse me.
Indeed. I'm generous like that.

I assumed
Never a good idea.

that, since smoke had been pouring out of it the building for almost 2 hours at this time, you'd realize that the "begins to get PUSHED out of the windows" would refer to the sudden increase in smoke.

sss.gif

(Use this one to work out when skome ejecta increases)

dreh.gif

(And this one to synch to vertical displacements)

Note the various increases in smoke ejecta from the very beginning.

Moaning that you mean't some latter smoke ejecta is foolish and meaningless.

Apparently I overestimated...
No, you assumed, and didn't bother to look.

It's obvious what you mean by your interpretation of the gif.
Good. Thanks.

It's obvious to me what I mean in my interpretation of the same gif.
Er, if your interpretation made any sense, but.

My interpretation of when the smoke starts pouring out is different than yours. And my eyes served me just fine in producing the timing for MY interpretation of the gif.
Riiiight.

I'll sit here & giggle.
OK chuckles ;)
 
And this image can help you understand that visible antenna movement happens well before movement of the SW corner fire.

excasest002.gif
.

60 frames per second to scale time.

Drop curves and vertical and horizontal tracing in the pre-release region are the proper tools, but the movement is even visible to the naked eye over 2 seconds before the NW corner failure event so there is no excuse not to see it.
 
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Myriad post 142:
If facade pieces are moving outwards, it's because the building is collapsing, distorting the structure, and buckling certain of its members, other effects of which (such as the tilting of the columns above the initiation floor) are clearly evident in numerous images including the ones you posted [in post 135].

ETA: Do you see any problem with my assessment of the relative timing of the tilt versus the smoke ejections, in the sequence of images you posted? Did I get anything wrong? Do you disagree that an inch of movement would be harder to perceive than the displacement of 1700 cubic feet of smoke that it would cause? Is there any "pulse" that is demonstrably different in nature from the smoke already emanating due to the fire itself, that occurs prior to any tilting? If so, can you point it out specifically?


You cannot see the metal cladding bveing violently pushed outward?


In the pictures you posted in post 135 which is what I'm talking about, I see the upper part tilting, which is consistent with smoke ejections and buckling of cladding and structural members which I also see.

I see pieces moving. I see smoke moving. I don't see any evidence that the latter is directly causing the former as you claim. Buckling would cause tilting which would cause smoke displacement.

There are many sharp pulses working their way towards the corner. Point out "the pulse" specifically? That is funny.


Since the issue is about the timing of pulses relative to the timing of other movement of the structure, you might have considered (if there are indeed too many pulses to enumerate them all) answering my question by pointing clearly to the very earliest clear indication of a pulse, so that it could be compared with the very earliest clear indication of movement. A description of what objective measures you use to distinguish a pulse from the ongoing smoke emission would also have been useful. (Clear indication of movement in the post 135 images is easily apparent in the third frame and might be detectable by more sensitive measures in the second frame, using the objective criteria of a change in angle of the columns, as I said, so we already had that reference point.)

I was listening to you, and I'm genuinely curious about what details of the post 135 images you think are important and what you think they are actually showing.

But if you don't care enough to answer, then I guess we're both wasting our time. Sorry to have bothered (with) you.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
In the pictures you posted in post 135 which is what I'm talking about, I see the upper part tilting, which is consistent with smoke ejections and buckling of cladding and structural members which I also see.

I tend to agree that the cladding buckling is related to tilt angle...


Smoke ejection is a little different.

I don't think it's being ignored, though perhaps WTC 2 is not the best topic of discussion in a WTC 1 Features thread. Perhaps MT will start one specific to WTC2 and the mods will allow the related posts to be migrated.
 
And this image can help you understand that visible antenna movement happens well before movement of the SW corner fire.

60 frames per second to scale time.

Drop curves and vertical and horizontal tracing in the pre-release region are the proper tools, but the movement is even visible to the naked eye over 2 seconds before the NW corner failure event so there is no excuse not to see it.
Your posts are evidence of no CD. Do you mean to debunk the delusional CD claims?
 
For the most part the list describes well known collapse features, you even use NIST quotes to indicate some of the events. Much of your commentary and conclusions seem to be poorly backed up with evidence and what evidence you do try and present is often lacking adequate detail, with graphs having inadequate labeling and seemingly random start points on frames.There's generally no attempt to link events to a standard time, even when using the same footage for different features.

[qimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/swampmonster/september%2011/revisedimage00001.jpg[/qimg]

Above is an example of one of your graphs with an altered version below it for comparison. In this graph a predicted plot of points on a rotating building is compared to your trace data. Due to the use of different scales for time the graphs, as presented, displayed a marked difference but when changed to give matching scales on both axes present strong support for rotation being the main cause of the antenna "drop".

I don't know whether this is part of a deliberate attempt to deceive or just a lack of effort on your part but it doesn't help your case.

That is because you didn't understand the argument given, which is my fault because I didn't write it clear enough. I will certainly be guilty of a lack of clarity within parts of the features list while I update and edit it. This is one example. Posting over 40 features is a large task and there will be much editing to do Perhaps it wasn't clear how to use the graphs you posted.


I think it should be clear now as one of the arguments for concave roof deformation in the link Concave Roof Deformation



Note that the quantity b-r cannot be used to measure the actual tilt. Comparision with the plots a-b and r-98 show that the structure interconnecting points b and r could not have maintained rigidity. That was the whole point of the argument.

The graph on the left is the near linear relation between south tilt and perceived convergence between points for a model undergoing pure rotational motion as a rigid body about an rotation axis through the 98th floor, north face. The derivation of the fixed relations between southward tilt and perceived downward displacement over 0 to 4 degrees is expanded and should be very clear.

The point is that a-b maintains a rigid relation because we can see the antenna remains rigid. r-98 also maintains a rigid relation until the north wall gives because we can see the NW corner between fl 98 and the roofline does not buck during this time. But notice how the quantity b-r deviates from rigid behavior in both shape and magnitude. If you used b-r as points on a rigid body and attempted to calculate the tilt angle from it, you get angles that are noticably inconsistent with the north wall and antenna tilts. That is the point of the argument.

At the link I give at least 3 different arguments that come to the same conclusion. Neither argument depends upon the others and all come to the same conclusion of concave roof-line deformation.

The same argument is included in the collection of measurements at the link Earliest Detectable and Drop Movements Traced and Plotted

Yet another way to see that the antenna and the NW corner clearly do not move together as two fixed points on a rigid body undergoing rotation is presented here:

Antenna Sags 2 ft into Roofline before Falling


And, of course, you can just look at the gif in my last post to see the antenna moving separately than the perimeter with your own eyes.


Reactor Drone, thanks for the feedback. Any question? Please ask.
 
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Reactor Drone, if the meaning of frame numbers are unclear, this download is a good way to see each frame of the achimspok Sauret clip and the NBC NW clip synchronized frame by frame:

NBC NW-corner and Sauret synchronized (1920x1080)
Download available at: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QIYRZNR3
It is a packed rar. It includes numbered JPGs for every frame at 59.94fps and the numbering Achimspok used. The videos are 29,97fps! Therefore you always have the same frame twice. The Sauret included is the blown up "field 0" of the original interlaced frames.

Individual jpegs of the 2 main views synchronized by frame number is a great way to follow most of the graphs.

I also provide source video information here:
http://the911forum.freeforums.org/early-movement-of-wtc1-made-simple-t346.html#p9513

If some graphs are still hard to read, it is because I need to edit this information into the feature list.
 
Using the attributes list in the OP, it is easy to find the specific mistakes in the reasoning of truthers and debunkers alike. Basically, those involved in all sides of the debate have the common tendency to ignore the features they don't like and replace them with imaginary attributes dreamed up by themselves.

We can see that the NIST does this. They basically dreamed up a building they called "WTC1" and invented non-existent attributes to bolster their claims, while ignoring how the real building moved and failed. As we compare the NIST list of WTC1 collapse initiation atributes with the behavior of the real building, it becomes obvious that their probable cause of collapse initiation is a product of their own imaginations only.

Bazant does the exact same thing in his collapse progression crush down, then crush up equations 12 and 17 in Bazant and Verdure. It is interesting to note how many specific attributes in the OP needed to be totally ignored by Bazant in order to write Bazant and Verdure and his 2 follow-up papers, BVReply and BLGB. In fact, most of the Bazant comments in BVReply cease to have any real meaning if we compare them to the knowm observables and measurables in the list in the OP. It is as if Bazant invented a building in his own mind, and believed this building represented the behavior of WTC1.


Among popular truther groups, when we compare many of their claims to the list in the OP, we see, like the NIST and Bazant, they show a clear preference for fantasy attributes over real observable, measurable ones. For example....


Since it is generally easier to find fault in others than in oneself, for this forum let's consider the claims about WTC1 found on the hone page of the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

Directly from the AE911T home page:

explo2.jpg

As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives:

1) Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
2) Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
3) Extremely rapid onset of destruction
4) Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
5) Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
6) Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
7) Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
8 ) 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
9) Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
10) Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
11) Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
12) Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
13) Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
14) No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.

1) Slow onset with large visible deformations
2) Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
3) Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
4) High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”


If we compare these claims of WTC1 activity with the list of measurable, observable attributes in the OP and the OOS propagation model based on these attributes, we see that the AE9/11T list does not describe WTC1, but some imaginary building which exists only in the minds of the website's authors.


By comparing the list of actual observed and measurable features with their list point by point we can check which of these claims are real and which are pure fantasy.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

This is why I earlier characterized the more mainstream "9-11 debate" as one which sets Tweedle-dee against Tweedle-dum. Fantasy vs fantasy weaving a web of illusion. A mouse trap. A room full of mirrors.

All parties make the common mistake of ignoring whole sets of measurable and observable features which they don't like and inserting their own imaginary attributes to support weak claims. The NIST, Bazant, many debunkers in this forum, STJ911T and AE911T are all guilty of inventing their own WTC1 and talking about it as if it is the real building.

Meanwhile they ignore tha actual building, preferring their own fantasy models instead.

It is ironic how many attributes have to be ignored the debunkers that frequent this forum in order to justify the NIST conclusions. While you can see that the popular truth groups STJ911T and AE911T ignore many of the attributes in the OP and invert WTC1 collapse attributes seemingly out of the blue, you cannot see that Bazant, NIST and the many of the posters here are guilty of the exact same thing.

The tendency on all sides is to ignore, invent and embellish physical attributes of WTC1 to justify your own totally subjective stance. The list of attributes in the OP provide direct proof that this is indeed what is happening. It's mostly just a fake debate.
 
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Directly from the AE911T home page:

[qimg]http://www.ae911truth.org/images/stories/explo2.jpg[/qimg]
As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives:

1) Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
2) Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
3) Extremely rapid onset of destruction
4) Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
5) Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
6) Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
7) Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
8 ) 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
9) Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
10) Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
11) Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
12) Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
13) Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
14) No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire


Excuse me, Major Tom, which of the above points do you believe do not match the observables of the WTC1 collapse?
 
Usi

As we compare the NIST list of WTC1 collapse initiation atributes with the behavior of the real building, it becomes obvious that their probable cause of collapse initiation is a product of their own imaginations only.

What's that smell?

Smells like projection.

You claim that the cores MUST have failed first, based on visual evidence only. You have zero analysis of how load transfers would have occurred, since they cannot be seen. NIST has the tools and experience to do this analysis for you. You cannot debate their results due to lack of knowledge.

Only in your imagination does your statements challenge NIST's. You cannot counter their analysis of how loads would have transferred from the perimeter columns (due to their failure) and onto the core columns, among others.

The core columns may be the first visually observable event. But you have nothing, zero, squat, nada, that can rebut their analysis.

But continue to wallow in your delusions and imaginary superior analysis. For we all need the entertainment we can get, and twoofs, particularly those that believe they have a superior analysis, are by far the most entertaining.
 
Ergo, the very first item on their list claims near free fall acceleration of the collapse front.

Here is a visual record of the leading heavy object in free fall from WTC1. If you compare the postion of the object with the collapse fronts, you can see how absurd the AE911T claim is without making a single calculation.

SW Corner Section is Earliest Free-falling Object

That is how easy it is to debunk the first claim on their list. 5 or 6 publicly available photos is all that is necessary.

Unless that piece has a little rocket strapped to it, the near free fall claim is totally bogus.

Same can be done with WTC2 by comparing the earliest falling object with the collapse front here:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=120&MMN_position=293:293

It is obvious the falling object is way, way ahead of the collase front at all times.
 

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