Wrestler Benoit and family found dead

[rtalman]

Will a bookie take a bet on a Bass Fishing tournament? I hear that stuff is all rigged too.

Dunno. But I know they refused to take action on any XFL games (Another McMahon franchise), which told me something about the legitimacy of that "sport."

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

A recent study by Harrison Pope studied the angry behavior of 50 individuals using anabolic steroids and only 2 of them even showed marked hypomania which itself has previously been explained by the fact that steroid users tend to have cluster B personality disorders, when I say "tend to" I mean slightly above that of the average population. This means that the incredibly small % of Anabolic Steroid users who have marked signs of hypomania, it could easily be explained by predisposition to aggression in the first place opposed to being caused by the Steroids.

 

[Checkmite]

All of those are secondary sources, Not actual scientific studies. The actual scientific studies done which test the aggression of steroid users show steroids have little or no effect on aggressive behavior.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12938869

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8855834

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12062320

Anabolic steroid^WP

Enlightening. Especially the part where it says

Conclusion: Supraphysiological doses of testosterone, when administered to normal men in a controlled setting, do not increase angry behavior. These data do not exclude the possibility that still higher doses of multiple steroids might provoke angry behavior in men with preexisting psychopathology.

 

[skeptifem]

Just a sore point. Calling someone who was in the WWF or similar staged wrestling matches a "great wrestler" is a bit of an insult to all real wrestlers (yes, I know, many cross over). It is a bit like saying someone who plays air guitar is a "great guitarist".

i can think of at least one guy who was a 'real' wrestler before wwf.


either way i dont think the dedication that pro wrestlers display is anything to sneeze at. and its not like its a painless thing to get involved in (yeah, you might like mick foleys book, dude lost an ear and a few other things.... hes a funny guy and a good writer regardless of any wrestling stuff).

 

[Lonewulf]

That still doesn't make it "real" wrestling, though. Real wrestling and "fake" wrestling are two different things.

I don't see what's so fundamentally complicated about such a concept.

Don't get me wrong, fake wrestling could take dedication, could bring popularity, and may even be painful (usually when mistakes are made)... but that doesn't make it real wrestling.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Enlightening. Especially the part where it says

That's only that one study. That study used 600 mg testosterone enanthate per week. This is probably more than most steroid users use in the first place. Moreover, the study doesn't mention (which means they probably weren't used) SERM's or Aromatose inhibitors. We really can't know whether or not Anabolic steroids in super high doses can affect individuals with previous psychopathological problems however that's not what "roid rage" is said to be. "Roid rage" is said not to be slight episodes of aggression but dramatic bouts of psychotic angry behavior which occur in steroid users. As far as I know, Benoit had no previous psychopathological problems and considering the fact that (as far as I know) his prescriptions were from a doctor he wouldn't of had extreme doses of any substances. Tens of thousands of pro-bodybuilders world wide use anabolic steroids, doses likely much higher than that of Benoits, and don't murder their families.

 

[Tricky]

A recent study by Harrison Pope studied the angry behavior of 50 individuals using anabolic steroids and only 2 of them even showed marked hypomania which itself has previously been explained by the fact that steroid users tend to have cluster B personality disorders, when I say "tend to" I mean slightly above that of the average population. This means that the incredibly small % of Anabolic Steroid users who have marked signs of hypomania, it could easily be explained by predisposition to aggression in the first place opposed to being caused by the Steroids.

From your link.

In a randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover trial, we administered testosterone cypionate for 6 weeks in doses rising to 600 mg/wk and placebo for 6 weeks, separated by 6 weeks of no treatment

Drug response was highly variable: of 50 participants who received 600 mg/wk of testosterone cypionate, 42 (84%) exhibited minimal psychiatric effects (maximum YMRS score, <10), 6 (12%) became mildly hypomanic (YMRS score, 10-19), and 2 (4%) became markedly hypomanic (YMRS score, <IMG alt=">=" src="http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/math/ge.gif" border=0>20).

Gosh, after 6 weeks of steroids, only 4% became manic. I wonder what would happen if you took them for years? Even so, 4% is pretty darn significant. Considering the widespread steriod use in sports, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest "roid rage" as a possible cause or supporting cause for rare but horrific incidents like this. Probably fewer than 4% of people commit murder-suicide too.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

From your link.

Gosh, after 6 weeks of steroids, only 4% became manic. I wonder what would happen if you took them for years? Even so, 4% is pretty darn significant. Considering the widespread steriod use in sports, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest "roid rage" as a possible cause or supporting cause for rare but horrific incidents like this. Probably less than 4% of people commit murder-suicide too.

Only 4% exhibited marked hypomania. Marked hypomania doesn't equate to murder-suicide. Becoming very angry doesn't mean you're going to murder your family and then kill yourself. Under what circumstances can you imagine yourself becoming so angry that you do such a thing? Especially over a period of 3 days. Benoit obviously had some sort of mental breakdown from causes other than anabolic steroids. Steroid users are supposed to "cycle" on and off steroids and it's something he should have been doing himself if he was being monitored by a doctor. This means using for a period of several weeks and then stopping the steroids and starting a post cycle therapy with a drug that helps the natural testosterone levels recover and then going on another cycle several months later. Continuous use of anabolic steroids isn't safe for hepatoxicity reasons however it itself doesn't actually cause hypomania either. The first study didn't have a time period and simply questioned individuals currently using and it came up with no signs of increased aggression either. Steroid users prior to ever using steroids tend to be naturally aggressive Cluster B personality individuals. This fact could confound any case studies showing a slight positive correlation between marked hypomania and steroid use.

 

[andyandy]

i can think of at least one guy who was a 'real' wrestler before wwf.

.

Double Olympic gooooooold medalist.....Kuuuuuuurt Angle!

 

[rtalman]

Double Olympic gooooooold medalist.....Kuuuuuuurt Angle!

3 time National Amateur Wrestling Champion, 4 time All American, and 2 time Armed Forces Champion Bobby LAAAAAshleeeeey.

 

[shuize]

I once caused a dormmate in Japan (a Japanese university student at a pretty good university) to lose his sh-t and storm away in a huff for suggesting the women's pro-wrestling program we were watching was not the real deal.

Me: "If that'd been a real kick to the face, it sure would've hurt."

Him: "Oh, it was real alright."

Me (after a slight pause): "You know the whole thing's staged, right?"

Him: "It's not staged, it's real."

Me (laughing): "Dude, everyone in America old enough to ride without training wheels knows it's fake."

Him: "I don't care what you say! It may be fake in America, but it's real in Japan!"

-- Door Slam --

 

[Tricky]

Double Olympic gooooooold medalist.....Kuuuuuuurt Angle!

3 time National Amateur Wrestling Champion, 4 time All American, and 2 time Armed Forces Champion Bobby LAAAAAshleeeeey.

Oh, no doubt many if not most Rasslers are former Wrestlers. In Nascar, they have found that former football players make excellent pit crew members (especially jack-men) because it requires the same skills: speed, strength and size. But they are still jack-men, not football players.

I am not trying to badmouth Rasslers because they most are dedicated, very atheletic, hard-working performers who actually may have more skills than Wrestlers (like acting). But in my opinion, wrestling should still be a sport, not a show, no matter how talented the performers.

 

[Tricky]

Only 4% exhibited marked hypomania. Marked hypomania doesn't equate to murder-suicide. Becoming very angry doesn't mean you're going to murder your family and then kill yourself. Under what circumstances can you imagine yourself becoming so angry that you do such a thing? Especially over a period of 3 days. Benoit obviously had some sort of mental breakdown from causes other than anabolic steroids. Steroid users are supposed to "cycle" on and off steroids and it's something he should have been doing himself if he was being monitored by a doctor. This means using for a period of several weeks and then stopping the steroids and starting a post cycle therapy with a drug that helps the natural testosterone levels recover and then going on another cycle several months later. Continuous use of anabolic steroids isn't safe for hepatoxicity reasons however it itself doesn't actually cause hypomania either. The first study didn't have a time period and simply questioned individuals currently using and it came up with no signs of increased aggression either. Steroid users prior to ever using steroids tend to be naturally aggressive Cluster B personality individuals. This fact could confound any case studies showing a slight positive correlation between marked hypomania and steroid use.

The study had a control group, Dustin. Those taking steroids for six months had 4% became markedly more hypomaniac than the control group. An additional 12% became mildly more hypomaniac than the control group. The use of a control group eliminates the liklihood that they were simply aggressive to begin with, otherwise, they control group would have shown the same changes.

Now admittedly there is more testing to be done, but this citation actually refutes what you are saying.

Frankly though, I think it seems extremely likely that adding testosterone-like substances to a person might make them more aggressive. I've seen testosterone in action.

 

[andyandy]

Only 4% exhibited marked hypomania. Marked hypomania doesn't equate to murder-suicide. Becoming very angry doesn't mean you're going to murder your family and then kill yourself. Under what circumstances can you imagine yourself becoming so angry that you do such a thing? Especially over a period of 3 days. Benoit obviously had some sort of mental breakdown from causes other than anabolic steroids.

studies do suggest a correlation and quite likely causation between high testosterone and propensity for violent premeditated assault

Prior studies have found higher levels of testosterone among persons who commit violent crimes than among those who commit nonviolent crimes. The present study examined data from 230 male prison inmates to determine how testosterone levels might relate specifically to the way in which inmates committed their crimes. Characteristics of inmate behavior associated with murder, manslaughter, robbery, assault, rape, and child molestation were scored from parole board investigative reports, and inmate testosterone levels were assayed from saliva samples. Among inmates who committed homicide, those high in testosterone more often knew their victims and planned their crimes ahead of time. Testosterone was not related to these characteristics for other violent crimes.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=69618b076845b9203b19cb683d48dcc8

and

Higher testosterone levels are related to criminal violence and aggressive dominance among women in prison, says a Georgia State University study released Sept. 23.

The study, published in the September-October issue of Psychosomatic Medicine, measured testosterone in 87 female inmates at a maximum security prison. Their criminal behavior was scored from court records, and their prison behavior was assessed from prison records and staff interviews.

Testosterone was found related both to the violence of the women's crimes and to the aggressive dominance of their behavior in prison. This finding was further supported by assessing how an inmate's age corresponded to her behavior and testosterone levels.

As the amount of the hormone measured decreased in older prisoners -- testosterone declines with age -- so did the aggressive dominance. But the study concluded that testosterone, not age alone, was the significant factor; older inmates who had high hormone levels were not less aggressive or dominant.

"The key to this study is it shows testosterone is linked to dominance in both criminal behavior and behavior in prison," says Dr. James Dabbs, a professor of psychology at Georgia State University and lead researcher on the project.

The findings, by Dabbs and Marian Hargrove, are similar to those in studies of male prisoners. This indicates testosterone's effects on behavior are the same in women as in men, says Dabbs. Testosterone levels were highest among male inmates convicted of violent crimes such as rape, homicide and assault. These men also violated more prison rules.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/09/970927110900.htm

we know that people who take testosterone are prone to become more violent. We know that surveys of prison populations bear the same relationship - those with higher testosterone having committed more violent offenses. It is therefore not unreasonable to suggest that taking testosterone could be a factor in understanding why Benoit killed his family [if that is what actually happened]

 

[Dorian Gray]

Wait a minute - I thought wrestling was fake!

 

[MelBrooksfan]

Wait a minute - I thought wrestling was fake!

It's what?! My world made sense 5 seconds ago..

 

[Snide]

Tricky FYI:

There is such a thing as Professional Wrestling. Not WWE/TCW/NWA or their imitators, but there are professional Greco-Roman wrestling leagues.

Since he first took control of WWF (now WWE) from his father in the 1980s, Vince McMahon has been very clear that what he presents is entertainment, not sport. A sweaty soap opera, if you will.

It's not a sport unless a bookie will take a bet on the outcome.

Good Ed what a silly argument we have here. Chris Benoit was a great wrestler. (A great worker as we would say in the old school biz.)

David Beckham and Tom Brady are great football players. I don't have a problem reading that statement without having to get into an argument over the definition of "football." Nor do I care to differentiate between amateur, professional, or "sports entertainment" wrestling. Benoit wrestled the type of wrestling he did. He was terrific at it. Much better than Brock Lesnar, for example, was at that brand of wrestling. Whether it is a "sport" is entirely irrelevant.

I'm no fan of the biz today, but I still gotta defend the boys...

(This in no way is to defend Benoit as a person...)

eta: rtalman, these comments weren't really aimed at you...except the part about "sport."

 

[Tricky]

Just a pause for a fond memory. Even when I was a kid, I knew pro wrestling was fake. It was obvious to me. Not to my paternal grandmother though. She was addicted, big time. Many's the time when I would hear the saintly gray-haired old matron yell, "Rip his damn head off, Crusher!"

I wonder now if she was on steroids.

 

[Snide]

Wait a minute - I thought wrestling was fake!

No more fake than a Shakespeare production.

Although, sadly, much less entertaining these days...

 

[Snide]

Just a pause for a fond memory. Even when I was a kid, I knew pro wrestling was fake. It was obvious to me. Not to my paternal grandmother though. She was addicted, big time. Many's the time when I would hear the saintly gray-haired old matron yell, "Rip his damn head off, Crusher!"

After my own heart, eh?