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Wrestler Benoit and family found dead

davefoc said:
I disagree Tricky.

Professional wrestling is entertaining for millions of people and calling an individual who excels at entertaining people "great" seems reasonable to me. Professional wrestling is a cheesy melodrama, but it is a melodrama that most of us are entertained by at least on occasion and some of us enjoy a great deal. (Most doesn't include my wife, who is completely disgusted by it).

Perhaps your point was that the term "great professional wrestler" or "great performance art wrestler" would be OK but "great wrestler" isn't because the term implies that professional wrestling is a competition sport. I disagree with you there also. The term "great wrestler" used in context isn't ambiguous and doesn't mislead the vast majority of people. For the few that are mislead, I say fine, let them have their illusions.
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I haven't watch pro wrestling since I was a kid watching it in black and white, but I have to say, you have to a tremendous athelete in order to do that stuff without getting maimed or killed on a regular basis. I think those guys are really gifted and huge amount of training goes into developing the ability to develop a good wrestling show. It is funny to me, now, when people still talk about wrestling being "fake". It's not fake, it just isn't real fighting.
 
As far as I know, Benoit was a "real" wrestler too, anyway. Could be wrong though.
 
davefoc said:
I disagree Tricky.

Professional wrestling is entertaining for millions of people and calling an individual who excels at entertaining people "great" seems reasonable to me. Professional wrestling is a cheesy melodrama, but it is a melodrama that most of us are entertained by at least on occasion and some of us enjoy a great deal. (Most doesn't include my wife, who is completely disgusted by it).
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"Most of us" are entertained by it? I find that Pro Wrestling has dedicated fans, but certainly not anything close to "most of us". And I still disagree. Wrestling is a sport, not performance art.

davefoc said:
Perhaps your point was that the term "great professional wrestler" or "great performance art wrestler" would be OK but "great wrestler" isn't because the term implies that professional wrestling is a competition sport. I disagree with you there also.
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I'm not sure if I get you here. You think that calling them "wrestlers" doesn't imply that they participate in a competitive sport, or that pro wrestling actually is a competitive sport? If you're entertained by it, then I'm happy for you, but pro wrestlers are no more actual wrestlers than Sylvester Stallone is an actual boxer.

davefoc said:
The term "great wrestler" used in context isn't ambiguous and doesn't mislead the vast majority of people. For the few that are mislead, I say fine, let them have their illusions.
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If you insert "pro" between "great" and "wrestler" you can make a case that it is not misleading. Otherwise, you dishonor people like Dan Gable. I think there should be a word like "Wrestleactor" for the pros.
 
Tricky said:
"Most of us" are entertained by it? I find that Pro Wrestling has dedicated fans, but certainly not anything close to "most of us". And I still disagree. Wrestling is a sport, not performance art.
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I used the term "most" to cover people that occasionally channel surf through a wrestling TV program and are entertained enough to watch it for a minute or so. My guess was most of us are entertained by it to that degree or more. I might be wrong. In a sample of two, my wife hates it and instantly skips past it and I will on occasion give it a few minutes. My wife also immediately skips past the Mexican programs featuring nearly naked large breasted women which makes no sense to me.

I'm not sure if I get you here. You think that calling them "wrestlers" doesn't imply that they participate in a competitive sport, or that pro wrestling actually is a competitive sport? If you're entertained by it, then I'm happy for you, but pro wrestlers are no more actual wrestlers than Sylvester Stallone is an actual boxer.
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And they are no more actual wrestlers than Mark Hamil is a Jedi Knight. But if somebody wants to call Mark Hamill a Jedi Knight, I'm OK with that.
If you insert "pro" between "great" and "wrestler" you can make a case that it is not misleading. Otherwise, you dishonor people like Dan Gable. I think there should be a word like "Wrestleactor" for the pros.
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I don't think Dan Gable is dishonored because his competitive sport shares a similar name to a non-competitive sport. I admire people that achieve great success in their chosen field and some professional wrestlers through a combination of skill, luck, showmanship and whatever do that. I suspect the number of people entertained by Hulk Hogan has greatly exceeded the number of people entertained by Dan Gable.

As an aside I wrestled in High School.
 
davefoc said:
I used the term "most" to cover people that occasionally channel surf through a wrestling TV program and are entertained enough to watch it for a minute or so. My guess was most of us are entertained by it to that degree or more. I might be wrong. In a sample of two, my wife hates it and instantly skips past it and I will on occasion give it a few minutes. My wife also immediately skips past the Mexican programs featuring nearly naked large breasted women which makes no sense to me.
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Okay, my mistake. I'm with your wife on the WWF stuff, but Telemundo is high quality entertainment. At least they're not just pretending to be nearly naked, large-breasted women.:D

davefoc said:
And they are no more actual wrestlers than Mark Hamil is a Jedi Knight. But if somebody wants to call Mark Hamill a Jedi Knight, I'm OK with that.
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The difference being that real wrestlers actually exist. Would you call Mark Hammil an astronaut?

davefoc said:
I don't think Dan Gable is dishonored because his competitive sport shares a similar name to a non-competitive sport.
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I'm still going to be a snot about it. And don't even get me started about so-called "non-competitive sports". If you don't keep score, it's not a sport. (Further discussion on this needs to go to the Sports forum).

davefoc said:
I admire people that achieve great success in their chosen field and some professional wrestlers through a combination of skill, luck, showmanship and whatever do that.
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Absolutely, and I wouldn't deny for a second that WWF guys are athletes as well as entertainers. I just keep going back to the "should an air guitarist be called a guitarist?" question. Maybe we should spell the WWF guys "Rasslers". That's how most folks pronounce it anyway. :D

davefoc said:
I suspect the number of people entertained by Hulk Hogan has greatly exceeded the number of people entertained by Dan Gable.
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I am certain you are correct, but has Hulk ever won a fair competition?

davefoc said:
As an aside I wrestled in High School.
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Me too, though it was done in the back of my Dad's Ford Fairlane. That wasn't technically a sport either, though scoring was involved.
 
Tricky FYI:

There is such a thing as Professional Wrestling. Not WWE/TCW/NWA or their imitators, but there are professional Greco-Roman wrestling leagues.

Since he first took control of WWF (now WWE) from his father in the 1980s, Vince McMahon has been very clear that what he presents is entertainment, not sport. A sweaty soap opera, if you will.

It's not a sport unless a bookie will take a bet on the outcome.
 
The media seems to have jumped onto the whole "Roid rage" band wagon, Interviewing only 'experts' who hold the contention that such a thing actually exists in the first place.
 
rtalman said:
Tricky FYI:

There is such a thing as Professional Wrestling. Not WWE/TCW/NWA or their imitators, but there are professional Greco-Roman wrestling leagues.
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I didn't know that, but I'm not surprised. I think Sumo wrestling is professional too.

rtalman said:
Since he first took control of WWF (now WWE) from his father in the 1980s, Vince McMahon has been very clear that what he presents is entertainment, not sport. A sweaty soap opera, if you will.
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Very open and honest of him. I wonder if there might have been legal reasons for doing this.

rtalman said:
It's not a sport unless a bookie will take a bet on the outcome.
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LOL. That's my feeling, but I can't wait to hear from the hunters who will be up in arms (pun intended) because I've said that what they do is not a sport.

Will a bookie take a bet on a Bass Fishing tournament? I hear that stuff is all rigged too.
 
I'm with Dustin here; how come there's no skepdic entry on roid rage? All the JREFers must be too busy pumping iron to sit down and write an article about it...
 
Whether or not you like it, "pro-wrestler" in the vernacular means someone who puts on a staged fight.

Many "real" wrestlers made the transition to this form of entertainment since it pays the bills. Danny Hodge, Dr. Death Steve Williams, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, and Dan Severn are a nice mix of collegiate and olympic wrestlers who "went pro".
 
Tricky said:
Very open and honest of him. I wonder if there might have been legal reasons for doing this.
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There was. When McMahon was taking the WWF national, he ran into some states (like Missouri) that had a State Athletic Commissioner who regulated and licensed sports like boxing and wrestling. Among other things, it required that participants be cleared by a doctor before participating and that a doctor be present at ringside, and this doctor had the power to stop a fight.

So McMahon was in a bind - in order to get past these regulations, he would have to admit that wrestling was not a real sport, aka, it was "fake". It was basically threatre instead of sport. This was the era when kayfabe was still in effect. He choose to admit it was fake, and the rest is history.
 
Tricky said:
Very open and honest of him. I wonder if there might have been legal reasons for doing this.
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Part of the reason was that he was tired of his performers being treated like competitors by state athletic commissions. Combat sports are tightly controlled. Drugs test and such are expensive and inconvenient. Admitting that it was a show freed them from a lot of regulation.

ETA: Damn you Scrut
 
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Dustin Kesselberg said:
The media seems to have jumped onto the whole "Roid rage" band wagon, Interviewing only 'experts' who hold the contention that such a thing actually exists in the first place.
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University of Maryland.
Psychological Effects of Anabolic Steroid Use
  1. Depression
  2. Irritability
  3. Inability to concentrate
  4. Forgetfulness
  5. Lack of interest or energy for everyday life
  6. Aggressive, violent behavior
  7. Paranoia
  8. Manic episodes
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American Academy of Pediatrics
Steroids also can have the following effects on the mind and behavior:
  • "Roid rage" — severe, aggressive behavior that may result in violence, such as fighting or destroying property
  • Severe mood swings
  • Hallucinations — seeing or hearing things that are not really there
  • Paranoia — extreme feelings of mistrust and fear
  • Anxiety and panic attacks
  • Depression and thoughts of suicide
  • An angry, hostile or irritable mood
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New York Times
Patrick Keogan (steroid user) said:
And everyone noticed his bouts of rage.
''It was happening in traffic, even at work,'' Keogan said. ''The cops were even called there. On the rare occasion I went a day without going after somebody, I'd make a mental note of it: 'Hey! I didn't go after anybody today.' ''
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A sports medicine site.
Central Nervous System
Mood swings
Violent behavor
Depression
Psychoses
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Council on Drug Abuse
Research has shown that the inappropriate use of anabolic steroids can have catastrophic medical, psychiatric and behavioral consequences.
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Of course, there are sites that discount the effects of steroids.
In my research on the governmental sites, I found very little of use, to be perfectly honest. There were tons unfounded claims and talk of money being put into "studies." In reality, the government "studies" on anabolic steroids were not medical studies at all. They were surveys given to various age groups, on steroid use, in order to generate statistics.
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(I should note that the last one is a site that sells steroids.)
 
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Tricky said:
University of Maryland.
American Academy of Pediatrics
New York Times


A sports medicine site.





Council on Drug Abuse


Of course, there are sites that discount the effects of steroids.

(I should note that the last one is a site that sells steroids.)
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All of those are secondary sources, Not actual scientific studies. The actual scientific studies done which test the aggression of steroid users show steroids have little or no effect on aggressive behavior.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12938869

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8855834

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12062320

Anabolic steroidWP
 
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