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Worst economics in science fiction?

Unless that episode's writer needs something different. How long was Scotty stored in a transporter buffer for?

The whole point of that was that it was impossible -- something no one had ever successfully done, and someone who is understood to be the legendary #1 engineer in the universe actually only succeeded in doing halfway.
Having a genius character do something once does not abrogate an economy that requires that not everyone can do it all the time.
 
On the other extreme, I was re-reading the opening chapters of Bujold's Brothers in Arms today, and was again impressed of how she never shirks or ignores the wealth problems inherent in certain enterprises. The very first conflict in that book has miles with a slight cash flow problem after selling his repairs to the engineering firm with the lowest bid, then negotiating to put the payment in escrow.

And then there was this gem from te first novel starring Miles:
Two large, businesslike plastic crates on a float pallet riveted Miles's attention when the Felician officers entered the refinery conference chamber. The crates bore a pleasant resemblance, in size at least, to old sea pirates' treasure chests. Miles lost himself in a brief fantasy of glittering diadems, gold coins, and ropes of pearls. Alas that such gaudy baubles were treasures no more. Crystallized viral microcircuits, data packs, DNA splices, blank drafts on major planetary agricultural and mining futures; such was the tepid wealth men schemed upon in these degenerate days. Of course, there was still artwork. Miles touched the dagger at his belt, and was warmed, as by an old man's handclasp. He decided he would probably settle for a few of those blank drafts.
The twist, by the way, is that the chest opens to show their payment as multi-colored bills in the local currency -- rendered essentially worthless by the current planetary war as they had been dropped by the Betan currency market.
There may be hidden economic fantasy in Vorkosigan's world, but I doubt it!
 
I think some of ACClarke's books posited an Earth where all production was mechanized, so everyone suddenly had lots of free time in which to pursue art and academia. No suggestion as to why all this cheaply-produced food and material wealth would suddenly be given away for free.
 
Harry Turtledove's Homeward Bound is deeply irritating in this respect. The reace clearly has some king of economy since asside from the space travel aspect they are pretty much technology level with year 2000 earth or even slightly behind. The problem is that despite the book effectively being a tour of the races home planet it never bothers to indicate if they are a highly planned ecomony (which would make the most sense in terms of what we see of their idiology), mixed socalism, capitalism, or economic fascism. As I said irritating.


On the other hand Bank's look to windward covers the economy or rather lack of it rather well.
 
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Also whatever energy problems it may have, they obviously are no matter when the same technology is used in holodecks just for entertainment.

I never noticed it until now, but the energy available to the Federation is unfathomably large. By TNG, they are controlling weather on a planetary scale and even preventing earthquakes.
 
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy claims that monetary units don't really exist in the Universe.

In fact there are three freely convertible currencies in the Galaxy, but none of them count. The Altarian Dollar has recently collapsed, the Flainian Pobble Bead is only exchangeable for other Flainian Pobble Beads, and the Triganic Pu has its own very special problems. It exchange rate of eight Ningis to one Pu is simple enough, but since Ningi is a triangular rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu. Nigis are not negotiable currency, because Galactibanks refuse to deal in fiddling small change. From this basic premise it is very simple to prove that the Galactibanks are also the product of a deranged imagination.
:D
From http://www.acc.umu.se/~ola/hitchhik.htm
 
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3point14 said:
Tatooine:

Why can't they import water?
It wouldn't physically be a problem, but I'll give you three guesses as to who, prior to Return of the Jedi at least, controlled who came into/off of Tattooine, what they were carrying, and most of the water rights on the planet. Your economic argument is defeated by, ironically enough, an economic argument. ;)

HansMustermann said:
Well, for that matter, why those smugglers laying low there for a while don't just haul a ton of their own water to live on?
They probably do, but hiding in your ship isn't a good way to meet people and make contacts. Same reason they don't find a nice interstellar void to hang out at for a while.
 
Or as has been wrote about - drop some ice from the sky.

We have no other information about the system other than one world and a binary stellar relationship. So we really don't know what other resources exist in the system for exploitation
 
Well, for that matter, why those smugglers laying low there for a while don't just haul a ton of their own water to live on?
It would be kind of hard to avoid as they arrive in spaceships with onboard fresh water tanks to feed their environmental system. :)

The place is not described as Dune so even a few cubic meters would make for a long time of daily losses when outside the vessel. At some water price and technology level there would be functional still-suits for sale, ones with an active cooling system.
 
Eh, most SF doesn't really think hard even about the physics involved. Think, for example: why bother having antimatter torpedoes, when even blowing a handful of sand from the cat's littler box in the way of a ship coming at 0.99c will do the trick, as each grain of sand becomes a relativistic weapon and impacts with all the energy of a nuclear warhead?

In Star Trek, that's what the deflector dish is for.
 
I'm saying that it still doesn't make sense if you actually do the maths. A deflector dish which can absorb or deflect the sheer energy of a small stone packing megatons in kinetic energy, can also deal with the same megatons from a torpedo.

Really, as a rule of thumb, as Rick Robinson's First Law of Space Combat states, "An object impacting at 3 km/sec delivers kinetic energy equal to its mass in TNT." Over that speed, chemical explosives become superfluous, since just filling the warhead with lead or tungsten gives you more bang per buck than TNT.

Anything over 30 km/sec relative velocity, does weapons grade damage. Around 190 km/sec, anything does about the same damage per kilogram as a nuclear warhead.

And when talking relativistic speeds, 1 kg of just about anything travelling at 0.999c (which is still in the impulse region), delivers 454 Mt of sheer kinetic energy. Two kilograms are a bit over 0.9 Gigatons, or almost 20 Tsar Bombas (the biggest thermonuke EVER detonated) and you'll see in a jiffy why two kilos.

By way of comparison 1 kg of antimatter PLUS 1 kg matter, only gives you 43 megatons. And actually most of that will be, or soon (as in, within 10-20m even at high relativistic speeds) turn into, neutrinos which are lost energy. Once you compensate for that, inefficiencies, etc, sources smarter than me estimate you might actually get 3 megatons of actual deadly energy on the target.

Better yet, in the purely kinetic scenario, even the rocket frame, electronics, remaining fuel, EVERYTHING is extra destruction power, while in an antimatter+matter warhead, the actual explosive is much less. Out of a rocket of one ton, you'll have maybe those two kilos as actual antimatter warhead, so the amount added by the antimatter to the final damage is negligible. It's lost in the decimals.

Essentially at that speed, you just made antimatter warheads 100% obsolete and superfluous.

And the corrolary is also that a shield which can deal with a 2 pound stone coming at you at relativistic speeds, won't even break a sweat at a photon torpedo.

ETA: the other corrolary, of course, is that no matter how much antimater you carry, you're not going to do impulse 9, and also have enough energy left to stop afterwards, because every pound of your ship will pack more kinetic energy than you can get out of 1 pound of matter plus 1 pound of antimatter. And definitely not with a ship where 90% of it is ballroom-sized bedrooms, dozens of holodecks, whole families including children for every crew member (see TNG), etc. IF you can even do it at all, which I doubt, the sheer ratio between pounds moved to antimatter needed to move it, will make you more like a Saturn rocket, with a small ship at the front and a giant fuel storage behind it. You're not going to move something Enterprise sized unless you have something space-station sized with the antimatter to move it, and at that point any sane society will go, "you know what? screw it. The kids can stay at home and the crew can hotbunk. We'd rather have 10 battleships for half the cost in fuel alone, than one luxury cruiser for the officers." (And there'll always be SOME cost, even just in resources and manpower needed to make that stuff.) To return to economic sense, that is one thing in ST that just doesn't make any whatsoever.

Basically, I stand by what I was saying, the physics in SF don't make much sense either.

Yes, it's overthinking it, and yes, I know it's SF and not a physics textbook. I know it's role is just to illustrate some point via exotic props and species. But that's kinda my whole point: it uses whatever handwavium powered engines, and wishalloy hulls, and unobtanium warheads, it needs for that. There is no point in singling out one for not making economic or physics sense, because, really, the vast majority don't really make sense in either aspect if you actually start thinking too much about all the implications, a.k.a., start deconstructing it.
 
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Worst but the idea I like the most is individual mutualism from the Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted by Harry Harrison. A planet where everybody works for the common good and get paid Whirrs (work hours) and nobody does anything to affect anyone else. Sounds lovely but completely unworkable.
 
Worst but the idea I like the most is individual mutualism from the Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted by Harry Harrison. A planet where everybody works for the common good and get paid Whirrs (work hours) and nobody does anything to affect anyone else. Sounds lovely but completely unworkable.

Given the satirical nature of the series I would suggest Harrison used that system purely for comedic effect
 
At some water price and technology level there would be functional still-suits for sale, ones with an active cooling system.


Hmm, I was going to mention Dune-style (muscle powered) stillsuits, as examples of questionable SF economics. (Thermodynamics is just economics at a really high level of detail, right?)

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Finally, many items have value by being originals. Art objects and archeological artifacts hold their value even if you can manufacture a knock-off that looks essentially identical to the real thing.
And, in practice, when you take a look at what the Ferengi are selling in Star Trek, it's usually in these categories -- artifacts and art, luxury consumables, bulky equipment, or raw materials.
The only time you see the Ferengi trying to sell the sort of mass-produced, manufactured goods that the replicator could meaningfully reproduce, is when they're encountering planets outside the Federation without ready access to the replicator -- which is to say, not often in the main TV series.
Well, Quark apparently charged for the bar replicator on DS9, though I suspect he mostly got paid in "shut up, we don't charge you to use our replicator." In fact, the Ferengi had the potential to be one of the more interesting Star Trek races. Their culture, their government, their religion was totally focused on acquisition in the face of scarcity, when replicators just swept along and made it all obsolete overnight. Those Ferengi we did see were more like old priests than anything; people stubbornly hanging onto their beliefs in the face of a universe making them increasingly irrelevant. Of course, what we got were Jewish stereotypes IN SPACE, so the above might be giving Rick Berman too much credit.

But I agree with AvalonXQ about the original goods. This happens so rarely I'm going to say it again: I agree with AvalonXQ about something. Anyway, sure, you can get your girl replicated Swiss chocolates, sure, they might even be taste like the real thing. But what if you bought her real Swiss chocolates from the real Swissiland? Or whatever, point is she'd basically have to put out, right? An' I can swing a trip ta Earth if you got the latinum, so whadda ya say?
 
Worst but the idea I like the most is individual mutualism from the Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted by Harry Harrison. A planet where everybody works for the common good and get paid Whirrs (work hours) and nobody does anything to affect anyone else. Sounds lovely but completely unworkable.

That's kinda the setup for Star Trek too, except they don't even get paid Whirrs. It's effectively a truly enlightened marxist utopia, except without actually mentioning "marxist".
 

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