Woodmorappe proving the Ark is possible.

[Lakia]

That's my question, why don't we see a genetic bottleneck in every extant species at about the same time in history?

No common bottleneck, no ark.

Forget looking for bottlenecks, if Noahs Ark occurred only 4000 years ago every species would be close to clonal, and most would have gone extinct after a few generations.

 

[Tricky]

The minimum viable population to prevent extinction due to inbreeding for most species is far higher than two. The Ark would have needed to carry hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of large mammals alone.

And even if they could survive, there is not enough genetic diversity for evolution in any major way. You need lots and lots of genes to provide the many possibilities to give selective pressure something to choose from. Yet flood believers like to posit explosive evolution after the ark landed, even though that would be the absolute worst possible time for evolution to occur. It's as if they want science to give them excuses for believing fables.

 

[devnull]

Shhh. This thread is basically a sequel on a previous one, where AvalonXQ announced he'd stop participating in the discussion:


Try not to give an excuse to drop this thread as well.

Wha? Sort of a "I believe nonsense and Ill rabbit on about it here, but as soon as you question it Ill flee" kind of thing?

AvalonXQ? What gives?

 

[Bikewer]

"compressed and pelletized hay".......where do you suppose Noah got the machinery for that trick?
But better....It's rather well-known that the Mosaic flood was simply copied from the flood story in Gilgamesh; some bits are word-for-word.

Oh, and then there's the whole Australian and American fauna....with highly unique species evolved to subsist on diets confined to tiny areas and unlike organisms anywhere else on Earth....
That's before we get into all the fish....turning all the oceans of the world into at best brackish water....Killing huge numbers of species...
Oh, and.....Where did all the water go?

 

[Madalch]

Oh, come on, people. The waste isn't a problem for Noah- he's at least a 1st level cleric with a wisdom of at least 15, so he can cast purify water at least three times a day.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

You have a God that is supposedly all-powerful, and a flood of water raining from the sky is the best way he can think of to cleanse the world?

Also speaks volumes about the morality of His management techniques. He doesn't seem to ever give people warnings or second chances, it's always just straight to the punishment. In the case of the Ark myth, it wouldn't cost him much to drop down to the Earth beforehand with a quick, "hey guys, stop that nonsense or I'm gonna have to drown y'all, 'k?". I think most people would have gotten the message.
But no, He sits in Heaven idly watching, doing nothing, until the problem gets so horribly out of hand He decides He has to kill them all.

The only time I can think of where He does give people chances ("let my people go"), it's all just for show as He then proceeds to use mind-control to rob Pharaoh of his free will so that He can keep on tormenting the innocent Egyptian people.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I am infinitely glad Christians hold each others to a much higher standard than they hold their deity.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

A quick and very rough calculation would lead to the fact that JUST the food for two of the smallest elephants, compressed into modern square hay bales (which would be a large stretch to produce in those times) would take up roughly 1.6% of the ark. (assuming 140 kg/day consumption, 2 elephants, 310 days at sea, haybale weight of 27 kg, haybale dimension of 0.17 m³ and a volume of the ark of about 40000 m³)
This completely ignores the fact that elephants in fact cannot live on hay and dry food exclusively for any lenght of time. And assumes that ALL drinking water would be gotten elsewhere

Now lets discuss hippopotamusses, which NEED to live partially submerged and consume pretty similar amounts of food.

So his figures for food would be correct IF he can prove that all those animals can subside on dry food for any lenght of time AND there is sufficient food available to feed the herbivores immediately. What studies does he cite to prove a 300+ day of only dry food does not kill most of the species cited to be on the ark?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

On to a more personal knowledge thing of mine though.
Modern day genetics.
We *know* the average rate of mutation in current day species and how such mutations can be inherited. We also know the upper limit of mutations within a single generation that still produce viable pffspring (not a lot).
Now I gather woodromappe goes with the 'kinds' explanation as otherwise the ark would not fit all known species. And (correct me if I'm wrong), he does not assume god re-created species post ark.
Which means all exant species needed to have evolved from the kinds. But our best caluclations show that speciation events take hundreds of thousands if not millions of years, with a lower limit of tens of thousends of years for simpler species.
Yet by egyptian times (a few centuries max according to the bible) this process was complete. What evidence (other than, its the only way to explain the ark story) does woodromappe show that speciation can happen THAT quickly? Its literally chimp giving birth to baboon territory after all.

 

[Robrob]

Most of the food was hay, compressed or possibly pelletized to take up less space.

Ever notice how believers in myths (religious or CT) always seem to rely on special technology not included in the original story (or in the case of CT, not existing in the real world)? What's next, hypothesizing Noah provided each animal pair with homemade vitamin pills as well?


Not to mention the already described serious issues with plant life, sea life and an Ark filled with tens of thousands of "poo chutes."

 

[Ladewig]

I never really understand Flood threads on the JREF.

When Christians claim that Jesus died and came back to life, no one says "decomposition would have started immediately after death. Blood would have started pooling in the very first hour which would have given the resurrected Jesus a blotchy look that is not recoded in the Gospels. Furthermore cellular degradation would have made reanimation impossible after the cited time period."

But when Noah's Ark comes up, then everyone becomes a walking dictionary citing fact after fact indicating that without God's divine intervention no one could have met dietary needs, waste needs, breeding population needs, space needs, construction needs, joinery needs, etc. Yes! Without God's intervention, even the teeny-tiniest aspect of the Flood story is impossible. But if you are talking about a Being that created Heaven and Earth, then stopping animals from pooping is not that insurmountable of a task.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a fundamentalist Christian, I believe that fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. are a drag on society, I am not a Christian, I do not believe in any God, I do not believe that if the God of the Bible appeared before me that He would be worthy of worship in any way, I am aware of evidence in virtually every branch of scientific study that completely discounts the Flood story. There was no world-wide flood. I get that.

My point is if one is dealing with the Being that created every animal on the planet, then running the numbers seems to me to be a waste of time.


ETA:
I do, however, agree with the posters who point out that literal or allegorical, the story paints Yahweh as either an absurdly cruel dunderhead or a very-troubled victim of severe mental illness.

ETA
or both

 

[Lowpro]

Well Ladewig to be honest, I rarely hear Christians talk about Jesus...which is weird now that I think about it.

I use the many threads on JREF as evidence for this.

 

[Puppycow]

Exactly how many species existed at that time? Well I guess roughly will do.

From a creationist view it would have to be at least as many are are alive today, because new species don't evolve. So they all had to be present at the time of the flood, plus those that went extinct later.

Did he take all the flora as well or is all that post flood?

That would be easier than animals as he could take just seeds. Some seeds also float.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I think they evolved after. I'll see what he says.

But we do not see a distribution of animal species that supports them all being dropped off at a central point, migrating away from that point while evolving at incredible speed. When I go for a drive around Anatolia I should be seeing kangaroos. Why is it that they are only found in Australia? Or at the very least what did they evolve from that once lived in this region and along the way to where they are now?

 

[Lakia]

I never really understand Flood threads on the JREF.

When Christians claim that Jesus died and came back to life, no one says "decomposition would have started immediately after death. Blood would have started pooling in the very first hour which would have given the resurrected Jesus a blotchy look that is not recoded in the Gospels. Furthermore cellular degradation would have made reanimation impossible after the cited time period."

The difference is, I've never heard a Christian argue that a human body doesn't decompose over a few days. They pretty much call Jesus' rise from the dead magic and leave it at that. But there are a lot of Christians who actually think it is possibly to fit two of every animals onto a boat and keep them alive for months. If they want to call it all magic, fine whatever, seems like there would be simpler ways for god to magically kill of most of the worlds population, but that's fine, god can do what he likes. But when they start to argue that koalas can survive on hay and dried fish, that's an argument I can get into.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

But if you are talking about a Being that created Heaven and Earth, then stopping animals from pooping is not that insurmountable of a task.

Then again, if you're a being that created Heaven and Earth, you won't need an Ark in the first place.

 

[Kopji]

Woodmorappe reviewed here. Be sure to follow the link at the end to woodmorappe's rebuttal.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

Why these discussions are a waste of time. The creationist site Answers in Genesis states this with stark clarity in their statement of faith:

By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/about/faith

So, claims to be interested in honest discussion are just a lie.

 

[pakeha]

^
That.
Still, as a learning experience, why not?

...
But better....It's rather well-known that the Mosaic flood was simply copied from the flood story in Gilgamesh; some bits are word-for-word. ...

And this.
Why do believers even bother with feasibility studies?
Whatever the facts, even as presented by some of the extremely well-informed posters here, if they contradict the bible, they must be wrong.
I find the mind-set of fundies, CTers and woo victims in general to be the same across the board.
Is there really any difference in the attitude of someone who thinks the Grand Canyon was formed post-Flood, someone who thinks homeopathy can cure cancer or a Birther?


Anyway, back to the ark.
I'm interested in knowing how the hippo transport problem is explained!

 

[rickps]

I have solved it...the Ark was...a TARDIS. Being much larger than a telephone box on the outside, it is, of course, obvious that the interior was the size of...wait for it...Earth. (Sigh! I'm going to miss you Amy Pond.)

 

[Kopji]

One possibility that does not contradict scripture:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/265d82b2c8/noah-s-ark-the-hippos-1

I think that animals like Hippos were thought to be on board as cute 'lil babies.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2/caring-for-the-animals

As much as 12 U.S. tons (11 m. tons) of animal waste may have been produced daily. The key to keeping the enclosures clean was to avoid the need for Noah and his family to do the work. The right systems could also prevent the need to change animal bedding. Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in modern pet shops.

Do they realize that the cages are cleaned in pet shops, or since this is done at night do they think it is some sort of miracle?

 

[Kopji]

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/ba...e-official-trailer?rel=player&playlist=336936

These are hysterical, don't get lost.