Woodmorappe proving the Ark is possible.

^
Too late.
Everyone knows you mustn't feed gremlins after midnight...
 
Kopji said:
...

I think that animals like Hippos were thought to be on board as cute 'lil babies.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2/caring-for-the-animals..
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No.

Check out this link, one that is safe for work place viewing:
http://www.zsl.org/zsl-whipsnade-zoo//news/hippo-calf-growth-watch,70,NS.html
...The tubby youngster was born on 27 December 2003 to mum, Nigna, and in March, weighed just 50lb. She has now quadrupled in size and weighs in at a whopping 250lbs! Lola is now about the size if an adult pygmy hippo, so over a metre long and just above half a metre high. ...
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That growth from 50 lb. to 250 lb was over 7 months.
The article burbles over the amount of time Lola spends in her pool area; no mention of the cleaning involved in her care.
 
The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the Ark, which would have allowed manure gases to be constantly released. Secondly, methane, which is half the density of air, would quickly find its way out of a small opening such as a window.
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I know I should be more serious about this, but sheesh, they are describing how an ark fart is made.
 
What is the point in trying to prove it is possible - there's no evidence for the story. We can show all sorts of things might be possible (e.g. teapot orbitting Pluto), but what's the point, may as well try and show how the 3 little pigs story could be possible.
 
welshdean said:
I can't believe it. I've spent the last three days reading this bloody thread, I get to the end and Avalon decided to nick off. I was going to ask him to watch these two videos by NonStampCollector which describe just how hard it must have been for Noah.


Part 1


Part 2


They're worth a look if you've not seen them. If you're in any doubt, assume that they are NSFW.
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I arrived late to the party in the other thread, so I've quoted my message there for Avalon here. Apologies to those that have seen them.
My question Avalon, is how does Woodmorappe explain the logistical problems presented in the two vids.


pakeha said:
Yeah. Then check out the ark's specifics for windows...
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Certainly not big enough for a balcony, nor a 'poop-chute'.
 
DrDave said:
What is the point in trying to prove it is possible - there's no evidence for the story. We can show all sorts of things might be possible (e.g. teapot orbitting Pluto), but what's the point, may as well try and show how the 3 little pigs story could be possible.
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It's a safer playground for literalists where they can focus their minds on the minutia, like how Noah might have gotten rid of poop, while ignoring the wider fatal problems of the narrative.
 
Lakia said:
The difference is, I've never heard a Christian argue that a human body doesn't decompose over a few days. They pretty much call Jesus' rise from the dead magic and leave it at that. But there are a lot of Christians who actually think it is possibly to fit two of every animals onto a boat and keep them alive for months. If they want to call it all magic, fine whatever, seems like there would be simpler ways for god to magically kill of most of the worlds population, but that's fine, god can do what he likes. But when they start to argue that koalas can survive on hay and dried fish, that's an argument I can get into.
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Pretty much this. A christian who is willing to go the magic/mircales route I have no problem with. Magic can solve any contradiction and you can ignore any problem.
But the only magic in the ark story officially is the flood itself, and when it was written it seemed very plausible to people as noone had any idea about zoology, microbiology, genetics, pealeontology, geology boatbuilding and the results of a worldwide flood on marine and plant life.
Now we do, and when creationists/literalists start suggesting that I and everyone who works in those fields is a liar out to harm their religion, while at the same time outright falsifying data from any and all of those fields to 'prove' their side of the story I will attempt to correct the falsehoods I see.
Even if it will not convince the hardcore 'the bible is right, therefore everything else is wrong' crowd, it might educate people that are actually willing to look at data.
 
tsig said:
Food in the form of hay, dried fruit, dried meat, and dried fish occupied up to 12% of the ark volume. Most of the food was hay, compressed or possibly pelletized to take up less space.
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How did they prevent the humidity from spoiling all these dried goods? They're the ocean in a boat filled with animals and little or no provision for ventilation. That's one hell of a humid environment.

Presumably they could pack the dried meat, fish and fruit in salt to act as a desiccant, but what about the hay?

And can carnivores even survive on dried meat?

tsig said:
Drinking water took up about 10% of the ark volume. This could have been less if rain water was also collected from the roof.
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I wonder how they're supposed to have kept that volume of water fresh for an entire year? It's not like they had chlorine available.

In the days of sailing ships, water would become tainted after a few weeks. They had to boil it to use with food or drink. (Which is why beer was essential, because the alcohol kept it from spoiling. A weak beer known as "small beer" was sometimes used to quench thirst without causing inebriation.)

So exactly how did they supply the animals with drinking water?

Madalch said:
Oh, come on, people. The waste isn't a problem for Noah- he's at least a 1st level cleric with a wisdom of at least 15, so he can cast purify water at least three times a day.
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Ah, that explains it.

AvalonXQ said:
It does. Individual cages; a waste chute.
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Okay, you're cleaning out the cages filled with animals on a level at or below the water-line and you shovel all the waste into a chute that leads... where exactly?

Ladewig said:
I never really understand Flood threads on the JREF.

When Christians claim that Jesus died and came back to life, no one says "decomposition would have started immediately after death. Blood would have started pooling in the very first hour which would have given the resurrected Jesus a blotchy look that is not recoded in the Gospels. Furthermore cellular degradation would have made reanimation impossible after the cited time period."

But when Noah's Ark comes up, then everyone becomes a walking dictionary citing fact after fact indicating that without God's divine intervention no one could have met dietary needs, waste needs, breeding population needs, space needs, construction needs, joinery needs, etc. Yes! Without God's intervention, even the teeny-tiniest aspect of the Flood story is impossible. But if you are talking about a Being that created Heaven and Earth, then stopping animals from pooping is not that insurmountable of a task.
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The difference is that the resurrection of Jesus was entirely magic. While the ark itself is supposed to be the result of human action (Noah and his sons), not an act of God.

If you're going to bring the magic of God into the equation as a necessary component for making the ark succeed, then the ark itself becomes superfluous. God could have just protected Noah's family and the uninhabited parts of the world from the flood (like parting the Red Sea), or simply caused all humans except Noah's family to instantly drop dead. No need for the ark at all.
 
The story of Noah is impossible without divine intervention. Trying to explain it with science is opening the door to redundant explanations that ultimately have to rely on miracles. The idea that you're searching for an economy of miracles in the end comes off as insincere when you're discussing it between believers and non believers, because believers are still always going to rely on miracles when they can no longer explain something through scientific explanation, there's nothing the non believer can say or do, so entertaining these ideas as if there's something your mind can be changed about is not sincere, economy of miracles or not.

Noah's story can be destroyed scientifically. It could not have happened without major miracles.
 
Brian-M said:
I wonder how they're supposed to have kept that volume of water fresh for an entire year? It's not like they had chlorine available.
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They took powdered water on board and re-hydrated it when and if required.


Brian-M said:
In the days of sailing ships, water would become tainted after a few weeks. They had to boil it to use with food or drink. (Which is why beer was essential, because the alcohol kept it from spoiling. A weak beer known as "small beer" was sometimes used to quench thirst without causing inebriation.)
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Or as it's more commonly known in these parts, Budweiser.
 
Dinwar said:
Oh, come on, you're not even trying.

Most of the boat is going to be below water. Waste chutes that go out would sink the ship. That means that all this waste has to go UP. Without electricity, on a wooden boat you're talking manual labor. Even if there are waste chutes you've STILL got to haul this stuff up several stories.

Besides, have you ever hauled hog poop? The stuff doesn't exactly move easily. It's not going to slide down the way you're obviously imagining--it'll all pile up on those chutes, until there's no room for the hog anymore. So you still have to have teams of people working with shovels.
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For that matter, if the cosmic ******* is going to forbid the eating of pork after a little while anyway, why have Noah bring the oinkers along in the first place?

Edited by LashL: 
Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 re: the auto-censor.
 
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Lakia said:
The difference is, I've never heard a Christian argue that a human body doesn't decompose over a few days. They pretty much call Jesus' rise from the dead magic and leave it at that. But there are a lot of Christians who actually think it is possibly to fit two of every animals onto a boat and keep them alive for months. If they want to call it all magic, fine whatever, seems like there would be simpler ways for god to magically kill of most of the worlds population, but that's fine, god can do what he likes. But when they start to argue that koalas can survive on hay and dried fish, that's an argument I can get into.
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Fair enough.

The appropriate response to those chuckleheads is to say, "OK, build an ark. Either construct a wooden seagoing vessel with the ark's exact dimensions or construct a building of the ark's exact dimensions and put in all the animals and food that you would need."

Why do we seldom hear of anyone actually trying to the the latter?
 
Myriad said:
Waste chutes are fine. They can even vent below the water line, provided that their linings are all as strong and water-tight as the outer hull, up to the level of the gunwales. The receiving (top) end of the chute must therefore be as high as the gunwales, or else each chute becomes a very large leak when waves are encountered.
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Sounds like some pretty nifty engineering! It would be something rivaling
modern sewage systems. I wonder why we don't find anything that advanced in any of the ruins from that era?
 
wakawakawaka said:
how did the polar bears get there and how did they survive the jorney with out air condtioning, or did they evolve from brown bears AFTER the flood with magical super-duper ultra evolution
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I want to know how the koalas got back to Australia after the flood, and how they carried all the Eucalyptus leaves they would need for the journey.

In fact, why did virtually none of the marsupials stay in the vicinity, but decided to jump on rafts or something and go to remote areas of the world? And why, after doing this, did they suddenly lose their wanderlust and decide to stay put for the next few thousand years?
 
Polaris said:
For that matter, if the cosmic ******* is going to forbid the eating of pork after a little while anyway, why have Noah bring the oinkers along in the first place?
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And deprive the world of bacon :boggled:
 
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aggle-rithm said:
Sounds like some pretty nifty engineering! It would be something rivaling
modern sewage systems. I wonder why we don't find anything that advanced in any of the ruins from that era?
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Because Noah held the patent, and he built wooden boats, not buildings.
 
devnull said:
AvalonXQ? What gives?
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Take a look at the amount of questioning of my intelligence, maturity, and honesty that has gone on just in the last two pages.

Why should I have to comb through taunts, denegration, and ridicule to get to actual arguments to address? Not to mention the Gish Gallop that comes from two dozen different posts making different arguments all at once.

And it's not like I can just find one or two posts making good points and address those -- any post I skip over, choose not to address, or fail to address in the way others feel I should is automatically the "killer argument" that "Avalon has no answer for."

It's not worth my time.
 
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