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“Woke”

That basically aligns with my understanding of what CSJ ideologues mean when they say science is "racist." They are referring to the supposed existence of a deep structural racism. They are not claiming that underrepresentation of Blacks in the natural sciences is due to discrimination in the present, as some of my colleagues think they are.
Absolutely. I think it comes out of the old Marxist idea that the bourgeoisie were prevented by their class interests from perceiving the world as it truly is, with the experience of the oppressed class being somehow more authentic. That then eventually turns into standpoint theory along with all the Foucauldian power stuff.

The difficulty is that a lot of the time they rhetorically dance on a line that allows people who don't read their books and papers to read them as making far less radical claims than they are.

The weird thing is that all these ideas have been talked about pretty openly for at least 60 years. You don't have to look very hard to find them explaining it all, it's just not what they go with when they are selling it to the public.
 
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Because theprestige was the person you were actually replying to in that post, obviously. If he's committed to saying that hippie Jesus and woke Jesus are the same dude, then yup, it's a decent rejoinder. If not, for whom is the rejoinder intended? Random Xn's lurking the thread, I suppose.

*sigh*

Let's leave aside for a moment that addressing the argument and not the person isn't just good skeptical practice, it is the rule here (even if I will argue that this has to be put aside a bit to deal with trolling, bad faith, and persistent poster blind spots), but theprestige's argument also neither requires nor indicates he believes in the Bible at all. It is still talking about what anti-woke Christians believe.

And posting for the lurkers is fine.

If we were only posting to convince specific other posters, and not to say explore and pressure test one's own ideas, why would anyone reply to you?

Wait...why am I doing that? The best I'll get is some phrasing reminders.
 
*sigh*

Let's leave aside for a moment that addressing the argument and not the person isn't just good skeptical practice, it is the rule here (even if I will argue that this has to be put aside a bit to deal with trolling, bad faith, and persistent poster blind spots), but theprestige's argument also neither requires nor indicates he believes in the Bible at all. It is still talking about what anti-woke Christians believe.

And posting for the lurkers is fine.

If we were only posting to convince specific other posters, and not to say explore and pressure test one's own ideas, why would anyone reply to you?

Wait...why am I doing that? The best I'll get is some phrasing reminders.
LOL.

It seems to me that "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek" have pretty clear meanings, and pretty clear implications about how one should behave.

If the same dude who said that also took a whip to the moneylenders, that just means he didn't always practice what he preached.*

Anyway, pointing out the hypocrisy of the preacher doesn't actually negate the plain meaning of the sermon. Jesus could have gone full Columbine on the moneychangers, and "love your enemy" would still mean BLM riots and antifa counter-protests are doing it wrong.

My bad, I thought he was giving us his own interpretation of what it might mean to love one's enemies, in practice.
Exactly this. The argument about what Christians really believe, and about whether they live up to those beliefs, is a red herring.

The question is what "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek" mean or should mean to people who prefer violent protest.

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*Alternative interpretation: The Son of God knows when tough love is required, and how to righteously apply it. "Judge not," says the Lord. That's his privilege. The rest of us should carry on loving our enemy and turning the other cheek. Let God decide when and where to use the whip instead.
 
If we were only posting to convince specific other posters, and not to say explore and pressure test one's own ideas, why would anyone reply to you?
A wise man once wrote "[A]ddressing the argument and not the person isn't just good skeptical practice, it is the rule here" at ISF.
 
Nah, loving your enemies would mean renouncing ACAB, leaving all those statues up, and remonstrating with "nazis" rather than punching them. It would mean giving up riots, vandalism, and looting as forms of protest. It would mean countering vicious speech with virtuous speech, rather than with cancellation. Etc.

"Woke" is very much about waking up and fighting back, instead of meekly turning the other cheek and trying to find a charitable response to the people complicit in the systematic injustices that plague you.

First highlight, no it wouldn't.

Second hightlight, the money lenders would like a word but they weren't allowed one.

The rest, the fact that 'woke' is both actively standing up to unjust systems and passively opposing them isn't evidence that Jesus' teachings were not 'woke', but it is evidence that it's become a label for anything reactionaries don't like.

The critics of 'woke' even make up things like pedoes being called 'MAP' and saying the left supports protecting them along with the LGBTQ community. Raping children is 'woke'. Fighting Putin is 'woke'.

LOL.

It seems to me that "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek" have pretty clear meanings, and pretty clear implications about how one should behave.

And those, and other ideas that you leave out because it doesn't fit your argument, would be called 'woke'. In fact are called 'woke'. Your attempt to define 'woke' as 'exclusion, violence, and deplatforming' only, isn't valid. No matter how you think it should be, it isn't how the word is used.

If the same dude who said that also took a whip to the moneylenders, that just means he didn't always practice what he preached.*

Anyway, pointing out the hypocrisy of the preacher doesn't actually negate the plain meaning of the sermon. Jesus could have gone full Columbine on the moneychangers, and "love your enemy" would still mean BLM riots and antifa counter-protests are doing it wrong.

The line of reasoning you were responding to was the anti-woke Christians getting it wrong. If you want to claim that you weren't talking about them, fine, you can insist you were engaged in a red herring.

As I said, "The rest, the fact that 'woke' is both actively standing up to unjust systems and passively opposing them isn't evidence that Jesus' teachings were not 'woke', but it is evidence that it's become a label for anything reactionaries don't like." You can't just say 'well these things aren't what Jesus said to do, these things are woke, therefore the teachings of Jesus weren't woke' when the things Jesus said to do are also called woke.

To put it in simpler terms; not everything that is 'woke' is also a teaching of Jesus, but a lot of the teachings of Jesus would be 'woke' today.

Exactly this. The argument about what Christians really believe, and about whether they live up to those beliefs, is a red herring.

The line of argument you responded to was a red herring of itself? Do go on.

The question is what "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek" mean or should mean to people who prefer violent protest.

---

*Alternative interpretation: The Son of God knows when tough love is required, and how to righteously apply it. "Judge not," says the Lord. That's his privilege. The rest of us should carry on loving our enemy and turning the other cheek. Let God decide when and where to use the whip instead.

Now do the prescriptions against hording wealth. Sounds too 'woke' to be a teaching of Jesus. And embracing sex workers, way too woke. Not calling teachers 'groomers' is too woke.
 
A wise man once wrote "[A]ddressing the argument and not the person isn't just good skeptical practice, it is the rule here" at ISF.

Yeah, I did in the same post where I was explaining why your idea was a bad one. I even had personal caveats that you removed.

*sigh*

Let's leave aside for a moment that addressing the argument and not the person isn't just good skeptical practice, it is the rule here (even if I will argue that this has to be put aside a bit to deal with trolling, bad faith, and persistent poster blind spots), but theprestige's argument also neither requires nor indicates he believes in the Bible at all. It is still talking about what anti-woke Christians believe.

And posting for the lurkers is fine.

If we were only posting to convince specific other posters, and not to say explore and pressure test one's own ideas, why would anyone reply to you?

Wait...why am I doing that? The best I'll get is some phrasing reminders.

Your framing here is intellectually dishonest in an extreme way. You can't just cut out the context to make it look like someone was trying to personalize the argument when it was directly addressing your suggesting to target the argument more to the person. What the heck do you think you're doing?
 
You can't just cut out the context to make it look like someone was trying to personalize the argument when it was directly addressing your suggesting to target the argument more to the person. What the heck do you think you're doing?
Gently upbraiding you for making it about me instead of my argument, obviously. "Why would anyone reply to you?" is about as personal as it gets on a forum centered around discussion rather than, say, sharing memes. You should retract & apologize, but I know you'll double down.

ETA: Who are these anti-woke Christians, exactly?
 
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My office to or 3 years ago encouraged everyone to let people know what their "prefered pronouns" were in their email signature.

I don't play these silly games so I of course did not comply. No one has criticized me yet for not being woke enough but I expect someday it will happen.

My response will be "piss off, Mr Virtue Signal".
 
My office to or 3 years ago encouraged everyone to let people know what their "prefered pronouns" were in their email signature.

I don't play these silly games so I of course did not comply. No one has criticized me yet for not being woke enough but I expect someday it will happen.

My response will be "piss off, Mr Virtue Signal".
So does doing this somehow serve to validate what you perceive as the sins of others? Is saying you're what you are somehow making you complicit in the offense of addressing people you disdain in ways you can't bring yourself to do? Or are you just waiting for the opportunity to pull a passive-aggressive tantrum when someone addresses you wrong?

I can see just blowing it off because it's not important, but your post makes it clear that it is important to you, and I must say I'm a bit mystified as to why. Even if you thought it was silly, saying "I'm a [whatever]" seems so simple and final and kind of....polite?
 
Why should parents be required to take anti-racism training?

I realize things have changed some since my long ago attendance at private schools, but I can guarantee that back then they could have used it. The schools in question might well be dealing with a cloudy history, and may also be dealing with a body of parents who are, without saying it outright, expecting the kind of atmosphere they and their parents got, and may well need to be disabused.

So a parent withdrew his kid from Brearly because he feared that inclusion and equality were indoctrination. I read his letter. It drips with condescending cluelessness. He's an idiot making sure that his kid grows up to be an idiot too. Dollars to donuts he went to private schools, and I'd be a little surprised if the schools he and his parents and their parents went to did not have compulsory chapel, but I bet he didn't ramp up to purple spittle-spewing rage about that.

In any case, these are private schools. They make up their own rules. It has absolutely nothing to do with public policy.
 
...... The author writes that according to CSJ,

"Knowledge is constructed to advantage oppressor groups at the expense of oppressed groups. As such, science, which was developed primarily by white European males, is used to establish and perpetuate the domination of whites, Europeans, and males at the expense of everyone else... Science is inherently and irredeemably 'racist.'"


Sounds like a load of unmitigated horse-cock to me!
 
The author writes that according to CSJ,

"Knowledge is constructed to advantage oppressor groups at the expense of oppressed groups. As such, science, which was developed primarily by white European males, is used to establish and perpetuate the domination of whites, Europeans, and males at the expense of everyone else... Science is inherently and irredeemably 'racist.'"

Sounds like a load of unmitigated horse-cock to me!

Yes, yet in this age of unreason it has become the dominant worldview (in North America [so far] anyway).
 
I realize things have changed some since my long ago attendance at private schools, but I can guarantee that back then they could have used it. The schools in question might well be dealing with a cloudy history, and may also be dealing with a body of parents who are, without saying it outright, expecting the kind of atmosphere they and their parents got, and may well need to be disabused.

So a parent withdrew his kid from Brearly because he feared that inclusion and equality were indoctrination. I read his letter. It drips with condescending cluelessness. He's an idiot making sure that his kid grows up to be an idiot too. Dollars to donuts he went to private schools, and I'd be a little surprised if the schools he and his parents and their parents went to did not have compulsory chapel, but I bet he didn't ramp up to purple spittle-spewing rage about that.

In any case, these are private schools. They make up their own rules. It has absolutely nothing to do with public policy.

Or, this is just another case of Wokeness gone insane.
 
Or, this is just another case of Wokeness gone insane.
Maybe it is, but so what? Private schools are private schools. Plenty have in the past, and plenty even now, been whatever word you might want to invent that is the opposite of "woke." The Gutman letter cited here certainly is.

Maybe the administration of that one has realized that after generations of racism, probably overt once, later insidious and sotto voce, it's time to do something about it. When you slam on the brakes, you get some smoke. Don't like it? It's a private school. If Brearly wants to expunge the kind of obstinate stupidity the Gutman letter embodies, more power to them.
 
Maybe it is, but so what? Private schools are private schools. Plenty have in the past, and plenty even now, been whatever word you might want to invent that is the opposite of "woke." The Gutman letter cited here certainly is.

Maybe the administration of that one has realized that after generations of racism, probably overt once, later insidious and sotto voce, it's time to do something about it. When you slam on the brakes, you get some smoke. Don't like it? It's a private school. If Brearly wants to expunge the kind of obstinate stupidity the Gutman letter embodies, more power to them.

This will spread to public schools, eventually. SF will be first.
 

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