With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[The Fool]

No it's not, but one wonders how it's relevent to this thread, which is about Palestinian groups breaking the cease fire.

No problem, if your goal is to list the failings of the one side in this conflict that you have a problem with then please go ahead...


Is he trying to claim that breaking the cease fire is justified because there are allegations some soldiers falsley accused some protesters of throwing rocks? Is Hamas launchig rockets almost daily at Jews justified because some soldiers may have beat up a protestor?

AUP doesn't say why he thinks this is relevent. It may be he simply believes we should never consider any wrongdoing by Palestinians ever, and always focus only on Israli wrongdoings.

Distraction distraction distraction...denial, revisionism, then more distraction.
Lol...any facts that detract from the theory that all the problems in the middle east could be solved by the palestinians simply bending over and saying thanks for the shagging certainly get you worked up....

 

[The Fool]

Nope... police brutality is bad, but it pales in comparison to kidnapping Palestinian Authority Officials and their families at gunpoint, firing rockets, mortars and suicide bombers at innocent civilians.

Just a question about your use of smilies in this sort of passage....Do you find violence amusing?

So what do the current attacks by Palestinians pale in comparison to?...if thats all that has to be done to demote them to humorous insignificance....

 

[Mycroft]

The complaint is often made...

Sure it is, it's been a topic many times.

Just not in this thread.

So what's your point? Are you saying that if Israeli soldiers made a false charge against a protestor, than Palestinians are justified in breaking a cease-fire? Are you saying it's okay for Hamas to launch rockets daily into Israeli towns because some anarchist got beat up?

I can think of many complaints that are "often made", but they can still be off topic if they're not related to the conversation.

So how is this related?

 

[Mycroft]

About the same way the react to Palestinian bashing, I would guess.

Do you know the difference between baiting and bashing?

Bashing is just criticism. It has connotations of unfair criticism or selective criticism, but it's just criticism.

Baiting is a form of harassment where you purposefully say something to incite an angry response from someone. Jew-baiting is self-explanatory

I call your statement Jew-baiting because it's inflammatory, it targets Jews, and it's demonstratively wrong on many levels. Let's examine:

”Hmmm, now if I said that the Jews want to take all the land off the Palestinians, would there be uproar here?”

For starters, it says “If I said....”, which gives you plausible deniability. If it prompted someone to say, ”Wow, you're quite the anti-Semitic turd” you could always claim you didn't say it, you just asked what if. Clever.

Then it goes on to “The Jews”. Not Israelis, not even Israeli Jews, but a generic all encompassing “the Jews.” I recall Skeptic once said “Arabs” and the Fool hounded him for about two years calling him a racist for it, saying it meant “all Arabs.” I'm going to guess the Fool will give you a pass on this one. That's just a guess, he might yet surprise me in showing consistency in his condemnations.

And the statement is demonstratively wrong. “Jews”, Israeli or not, don't want to take all Palestinian land. This is demonstrated in many different ways:

1) Majority opinion favors a two-state solution with an independent Palestine.

2) Numerous peace attempts over past decades to negotiate exactly that arrangement

3) In less than a month, there will be a total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

So would there be an uproar if you said that? Well, I would hope such obvious Jew-baiting would bring an uproar. I would hope it would bring a degree of shame too, but I don't think you feel that.

 

[Mycroft]

Just a question about your use of smilies in this sort of passage....Do you find violence amusing?

So do your attempts at humorous sarcasm indicate you find violence amusing? Or is this just more of the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[webfusion]

well answered

Thanks to mycroft, for actually rising to the challenge of replying directly to a unique person's posting about "the jews taking all the land off the palestinians."

Let's go one step further.

This thread began 21-odd-pages ago about the cease-fire that isn't. At some point, I was even prompted to say that Israel is going to mobilize it's armed forces and proceed into direct massive intervention inside gaza (this has not happened, as the Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz is making every effort to hold-off on doing so, despite the advice of his top generals to begin the operation now).

What do these irredentist Palestinians really want?
I am not saying ALL palestinians, I am referring to the Islamic Jihad and HAMAS and other groups who are convinced that armed terror is a legitimate strategy (and their doctrine is the same as that of those who perpetrated bombings throughout London and the atrocities on 9-11 in New York City and Washington DC).

If Israel were to disappear (ed forbid), would the Islamic Jihad and their like cease to exist? Would they not continue to scream jihad from the minarets of their mosques? Would OBL feel his mission was accomplished?

That is the issue.
Israeli actions, before or after June 1967, are not the real problem. The settlements are not the problem.
The jews are not the problem.

Here is the problem:

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: well answered

Here is the problem:

And here's the problem.

And here's the problem.

And here's the problem.

And here's the problem.

And here's the problem.

And here's the problem.

And here's the problem.

The problem is not Israeli border police punking on anarchists.


[edited to add]

The Geneva Conventions Additional Protocols of 1977, imposed a minimum age of 15 for recruitment into the armed forces of a state. The same minimum age applied to recruitment by armed groups. The Geneva Conventions Protocols also required that children under the age of 15 should not be allowed to take part in direct hostilities.

In 1998, the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court provided, inter alia, that the Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes and that a war crime would include 'conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years'

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinians strike Israeli targets in Gaza with mortar, light arms - Sat., July 30, 2005

Palestinian gunmen targeted Israeli settlements and Israel Defense Forces positions Saturday in a number of locations in the southern Gaza Strip.

On Saturday morning, gunmen twice opened fire on IDF troops near the boundary fence adjacent to the Slav settlement in southern Gaza. The soldiers returned fire.

Before dawn, a Palestinian mortar crew fired a shell at a southern Gaza settlement and gunmen opened fire on an IDF position near Kfar Darom.

 

[a_unique_person]

Do you know the difference between baiting and bashing?

Bashing is just criticism. It has connotations of unfair criticism or selective criticism, but it's just criticism.

Baiting is a form of harassment where you purposefully say something to incite an angry response from someone. Jew-baiting is self-explanatory

I call your statement Jew-baiting because it's inflammatory, it targets Jews, and it's demonstratively wrong on many levels. Let's examine:

”Hmmm, now if I said that the Jews want to take all the land off the Palestinians, would there be uproar here?”

For starters, it says “If I said....”, which gives you plausible deniability. If it prompted someone to say, ”Wow, you're quite the anti-Semitic turd” you could always claim you didn't say it, you just asked what if. Clever.

Then it goes on to “The Jews”. Not Israelis, not even Israeli Jews, but a generic all encompassing “the Jews.” I recall Skeptic once said “Arabs” and the Fool hounded him for about two years calling him a racist for it, saying it meant “all Arabs.” I'm going to guess the Fool will give you a pass on this one. That's just a guess, he might yet surprise me in showing consistency in his condemnations.

And the statement is demonstratively wrong. “Jews”, Israeli or not, don't want to take all Palestinian land. This is demonstrated in many different ways:

1) Majority opinion favors a two-state solution with an independent Palestine.

2) Numerous peace attempts over past decades to negotiate exactly that arrangement

3) In less than a month, there will be a total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

So would there be an uproar if you said that? Well, I would hope such obvious Jew-baiting would bring an uproar. I would hope it would bring a degree of shame too, but I don't think you feel that.

It was a rhetorical question. Not all Jews want that, obviously. Just as not all Palestinians want violence, or the end of Israel.

 

[a_unique_person]

For starters, it says “If I said....”, which gives you plausible deniability. If it prompted someone to say, ”Wow, you're quite the anti-Semitic turd” you could always claim you didn't say it, you just asked what if. Clever.

Clever? It might be clever, if that is what I was doing. But I wasn't, so stop wasting your time pursuing a line of argument about something I wasn't doing.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: peaceful protest indeed?

Peaceful protesting Palestinian-style

I don't see any violence.

The complaint is properly made because they are indeed routinely violent, in the extreme.

But this article claims that they are being fitted up, routinely.

BTW, somehow, in that article quoted, the response of the IDF was omitted:
"The area was a closed military zone."

A convenient means of making an area of land a place beyond any rule of law or redress for illegal acts.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: well answered

What do these irredentist Palestinians really want?
I am not saying ALL palestinians, I am referring to the Islamic Jihad and HAMAS and other groups who are convinced that armed terror is a legitimate strategy (and their doctrine is the same as that of those who perpetrated bombings throughout London and the atrocities on 9-11 in New York City and Washington DC).

If Israel were to disappear (ed forbid), would the Islamic Jihad and their like cease to exist? Would they not continue to scream jihad from the minarets of their mosques? Would OBL feel his mission was accomplished?

That is the issue.
Israeli actions, before or after June 1967, are not the real problem. The settlements are not the problem.
The jews are not the problem.

I don't believe that they are going to achieve the destruction of Israel, and they should give up any pretensions at doing so, just as the IRA has finally announced the end of armed struggly. Northern Ireland is going to stay a part of Great Britain.

The aim of all Palestinians should be the most just outcome they can achieve. Some I believe, want just that, others obviously don't. Just as there are Israelis who want peace, and others who are on a fanatical crusade to claim the whole areas that they believe the bible grants to them.

 

[The Fool]

Then it goes on to “The Jews”. Not Israelis, not even Israeli Jews, but a generic all encompassing “the Jews.” I recall Skeptic once said “Arabs” and the Fool hounded him for about two years calling him a racist for it, saying it meant “all Arabs.” I'm going to guess the Fool will give you a pass on this one. That's just a guess, he might yet surprise me in showing consistency in his condemnations.

Do you think that because its a while ago now you will get away with lying about it? He didn't just say "arabs" you know that

Your rewriting of skeptics statements in order to defend him are legendary. Remember, according to you...if he says "the entire palestinian people" he doesn't mean all of them...Lol, what a joke...you would defend anyone who joins you in your racist hatred of palestinians.

 

[Mycroft]

It was a rhetorical question. Not all Jews want that, obviously. Just as not all Palestinians want violence, or the end of Israel.

Rhetorical Jew-baiting.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Mortar shells fired at Gaza settlements; Jihad men arrested - (Haaretz) - Sunday, 31/07/2005 07:59

Two mortar shells were fired at a settlement in the central Gaza Strip overnight Saturday, Israel Radio and the Itim news agency reported.

Early Sunday, Palestinians opened fire on an IDF post in the northern Gaza Strip, close to the settlement of Gadid.

In other incidents overnight, Palestinians fired on IDF posts close to the southern Gaza settlement of Rafiah Yam, and along the border with Egypt, in the vicinity of Rafah. According to Itim,

PA coverage restriction ires journalists - (JP) - Jul. 31, 2005 2:45

In a move condemned by Palestinian journalists as a threat to the free media, the Palestinian Authority on Saturday issued a ban on the publication of any news related to its security forces.

The PA Interior Ministry, which is in charge of the security forces, said the ban applied to local, Arab and international news organizations working in Palestinian territories.

The ban follows complaints by some Palestinians that the PA security forces are partly responsible for the growing state of lawlessness and anarchy in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

"Every day we hear about a new measure restricting the work of journalists. The Palestinian Authority wants to turn us into its official spokesmen."

"There is a feeling here that there is no difference between Yasser Arafat and Abu Mazen [Abbas]," he said. "Abu Mazen is imposing severe restriction on the media just like Arafat."

Last week the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate, which is controlled by Abbas loyalists, issued a warning to all journalists to refrain from reporting on clashes between Hamas gunmen and PA security forces in Gaza City. It warned that any journalist who violated the ban would be punished for harming the Palestinians' national interests.

Emphasis all mine.

 

[a_unique_person]

Rhetorical Jew-baiting.

No, rhetorical, rhetorical. You cannot see your own face in the mirror, even when it is held up to you. Perhaps it is because you do not like what you see.

 

[a_unique_person]

Rhetorical Jew-baiting.

You know what, Mycroft, before I joined JREF, I only had a passing interest in the Middle East and the Palestinian/Israeli issue. I thought the Palestinians had the rough end of the deal, but had no more interest in the issue.

It is only since meeting the likes of people like you on JREF that I have come to realise the true insanity of the situation. The thing I really have come to dislike is the depths of insanity that debating people like drags me down to. Where I didn't ever think much of Jews before, now that I have debated you, I am much more aware of Jews than I ever was. Where I saw them once as one more group of people battling it out on planet earth as best they can, albeit being in the wrong on the military occupation of Palestine, I really do wonder what you represent. The worst advertisement for Israel, the best way to make people think worse of Israel, is to read what you and ZN think.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
No, rhetorical, rhetorical. You cannot see your own face in the mirror, even when it is held up to you. Perhaps it is because you do not like what you see.

If you think I've misinterpreted your words, you're more than welcome to explain how. Othwerwise, if you choose to be offensive, you can't very well hold me responsible for how you present yourself.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You know what, Mycroft, before I joined JREF, I only had a passing interest in the Middle East and the Palestinian/Israeli issue. I thought the Palestinians had the rough end of the deal, but had no more interest in the issue.

I don't care how your awakening happened. So long as you mangle history, distort the truth, deny evidence, and apply double standards, I will correct you at every opportunity.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It is only since meeting the likes of people like you on JREF that I have come to realise the true insanity of the situation.

And three years ago I didn't know Israel from Cancun. Fact-checking your propaganda campaign has taught me a lot.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The thing I really have come to dislike is the depths of insanity that debating people like drags me down to. Where I didn't ever think much of Jews before, now that I have debated you, I am much more aware of Jews than I ever was.

Right. You're anti-Semitism is my fault. I drove you to it by debating with you. Everyone should just be silent while you demonize a nation, otherwise you might come to dislike Jews.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Where I saw them once as one more group of people battling it out on planet earth as best they can, albeit being in the wrong on the military occupation of Palestine, I really do wonder what you represent.

Confusing Jews with Israelis again, huh?

Exactly who do you think I am that you wonder what I represent?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The worst advertisement for Israel, the best way to make people think worse of Israel, is to read what you and ZN think.

So disagreeing with you on how bad Israel and Jews are is cause to hate Israel. I can't imagine a better example of bigoted logic.

 

[The Fool]

You know what, Mycroft, before I joined JREF, I only had a passing interest in the Middle East and the Palestinian/Israeli issue. I thought the Palestinians had the rough end of the deal, but had no more interest in the issue.

It is only since meeting the likes of people like you on JREF that I have come to realise the true insanity of the situation. The thing I really have come to dislike is the depths of insanity that debating people like drags me down to. Where I didn't ever think much of Jews before, now that I have debated you, I am much more aware of Jews than I ever was. Where I saw them once as one more group of people battling it out on planet earth as best they can, albeit being in the wrong on the military occupation of Palestine, I really do wonder what you represent. The worst advertisement for Israel, the best way to make people think worse of Israel, is to read what you and ZN think.

I think the process of trying to understand him is probably pointless. Mycrofts Idea of doing his bit to lessen the suffering in the middle east is to send a pizza to the IDF.

 

[Mycroft]

I think the process of trying to understand him is probably pointless. Mycrofts Idea of doing his bit to lessen the suffering in the middle east is to send a pizza to the IDF.

Thank you for bringing that up.

They do more than buy Pizza for the IDF. On hot days they can buy sodas or cold fruit soup too.

It's a small thing, really, but I think it's an important moral booster to let them know that internationally not everyone thinks they're baby-killers. It's a tough job they do, and even though I'm not an Israeli, I want to let them know they're appreciated.

http://www.pizzaidf.org/