With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

Remember everyone. The BBC, Al Jazeera and Associated Press reported Hamas has confirmed its commitment to a truce. The links are in this thread.
Hamas, PA security forces clash - (JP) - TUESDAY Jul. 19, 2005 11:28

A gun battle erupted Tuesday between Hamas activists and Palestinian security officials after two Hamas-affiliated research companies were burned down, witnesses said.

Six people were wounded in the shootout, the latest tension between Hamas and the Palestinian security forces,

During the morning violence in northern Gaza, Hamas activists burned two cars belonging to Fatah members and fired a rocket-propelled grenade at another.
Hamas, Palestinian Authority clashes resume in Gaza Strip (Reuters) - 11:25 TUESDAY 19/07/2005

Palestinian security forces and Hamas militants fought gunbattles in the northern Gaza Strip on Tuesday in renewed internal clashes.

The clashes came as Palestinians overnight fired anti-tank missiles at an IDF base near a Gaza settlement, causing no injuries.

Palestinians fired at least four anti-tank missiles and set off a bomb near an IDF base outside the Gaza settlement of Neve Dekalim early on Tuesday, as the army lifted roadblocks that had cut the Gaza Strip into three sections, Israel Radio reported.

Three more mortars fell before dawn on Tuesday in a Gush Katif settlement.

On Monday, Hamas was said to have agreed to stop rocket and mortar fire on Israeli targets and resume the truce agreed upon four months ago, according to Palestinian sources.
Is anyone getting the picture yet? The assertion that Hamas agrees to stop rocket and mortar fire on Israeli targets and resume the truce agreed upon four months ago is a MYTH and a LIE. Here is Hamas attacking Israel AND the Palestinian Authority the day after they claimed to resume the truce.

You'd have to be smoking crack cocaine to debate that Hamas is resuming a truce or has remained committed to a truce. ;)


[edited to add]

Gaza: Fighting breaks out between PA police, Hamas - (JP) - Tuesday Jul. 19, 2005 10:46

Scuffles between Hamas operatives and Palestinian security forces continued Tuesday in the Gaza Strip.

Meanwhile, a nine-year-old Palestinian girl was killed and two more children were injured when an explosive device went off in the Gaza Strip neighborhood of Sabra Tuesday morning.

The Palestinian Authority Interior Ministry said that they have warned people to beware of explosive devices planted by the Hamas, Army Radio reported.
 
No hope

Now wait just a doggone second, what do you have against fine & upstanding crack cocaine users? Are you claiming they are unable to distinguish reality? Now, if you had said "LSD users", that would make sense!
But crack cocaine? C'mon, everyone knows the stuff is DELUXE!

crack_dealer.jpeg

What's a hamas? Where's israel? Huh?

======================
 
Re: I looked...

webfusion said:
Couldn't find any posts by T-F that meet the suggestion made by mycroft that unnamed posters had claimed that settlements were in breach of a specific agreement. AFAIK, The Fool has made no such statements. I used the Search function and came up empty.

The general assertion that people on this forum deny readily available facts and practice revisionism is no doubt a valid claim, since this is a natural result of accepting the 'turnspeak' rampant in the current MidEast conflict. One example is the Palestinian CHARTER, which some say was amended and some say was not.

The current round of blame for the terror continuing is also an example... as Z-N has pointed out several times already.

However, the only specific post by anyone I found using search criteria "violate agreements" and "jewish settlements violate" (the post I located refers NOT to the jewish settlements being in breach of the Israel-PA agreements going back to Oslo in 1993, but rather to UN resolution 242) was by Theodore Kurita:
Leader of the Draconis Combine
Posted in May 2004 "This is the Enemy" thread

Anyway, both sides are are now saying that the ceasefire is going to resume being honored again.
According to the IDF, Palestinian fire on Gush Katif declined Monday, and the western Negev was not targeted at all, for the first time since last Thursday. By Monday evening, "only" 13 mortar shells had been fired at IDF outposts in Gush Katif and the Rafah region.

Additionally --
"Hamas agreed Monday to stop the rocket and mortar fire and resume the truce agreed upon four months ago, according to Palestinian sources."

I don't know what to make of all this, but unfortunately, in the middle of the one-upmanship, a 14-year-old Palestinian boy, Raeeb al-Masri, was killed Monday by IDF soldiers, who opened fire at a convoy of Palestinian cars that had been waiting at the closed Gush Katif checkpoint for hours and decided to force their way through.

Perhaps this will be the final innocent casualty in the latest round of violence? We can hope.

Demon came up with a link to support the claim.

Either way, it would be 'good faith' to honor the concept when Oslo was signed. The intention of Oslo was to put in some initial conditions, and head towards a peaceful resolution after further negotiation. It appeared to require an end to conflict, but no end to more Palestinian land being taken, with 'negotiations' suddenly going nowhere.

I think that if you are going to have a settlement between Israel and Palestinians, there has to be a stop to the expansion of settlements? No?
 
Re: Re: I looked...

a_unique_person said:
Demon came up with a link to support the claim.

Either way, it would be 'good faith' to honor the concept when Oslo was signed. The intention of Oslo was to put in some initial conditions, and head towards a peaceful resolution after further negotiation. It appeared to require an end to conflict, but no end to more Palestinian land being taken, with 'negotiations' suddenly going nowhere.

I think that if you are going to have a settlement between Israel and Palestinians, there has to be a stop to the expansion of settlements? No?
Fatalities in Palestinian Terror Attacks - (1967-2004) - link

1967 16 (No settlements)
1968 39 (No settlements)
1969 32 (No settlements)
1970 17 (No settlements)
1971 27
1972 1
1973 3
1974 16
1975 26
1976 5
1977 41
1978 12
1979 14
1980 10
1981 5
1982 2
1983 6
1984 7
1985 14
1986 7
1987 5
1988 14 (Arafat's speech to the UN General Assembly, "Our Palestine National Council has reaffirmed its rejection of terrorism. in all its forms".
1989 32 (Note 32 is greater than 14)
1990 23
1991 26
1992 39
1993 64 (INSERT a_u_p's OSLO AGREEMENTS HERE)
1994 73 (Note 73 is greater than 64)
1995 52
1996 87
1997 31
1998 13
1999 4
2000 47
2001 206
2002 452
2003 214
2004 117
Now what's that about Oslo again a_u_p? I'm not quite clear on the whole settlement between Israel and Palestinians deal where there has to be a stop to the expansion of settlements.


Wasn't more Israelis killed after signing Oslo - 73 - than before Oslo - 64 -
 
Re: Re: Re: I looked...

zenith-nadir said:
Now what's that about Oslo again a_u_p? I'm not quite clear on the whole settlement between Israel and Palestinians deal where there has to be a stop to the expansion of settlements.


Wasn't more Israelis killed after signing Oslo - 73 - than before Oslo - 64 -

You already know what I think about this, I don't know why you expect me to repeat it for your benefit again.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: I looked...

a_unique_person said:
You already know what I think about this, I don't know why you expect me to repeat it for your benefit again.
Well lets examine THE FACTS:
  • There were no settlements and yet there were 104 Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attacks between 67 and 70.
  • Arafat gave a speech to the U.N. in '88 renouncing terrorism, yet the number of Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attacks more than doubled after his speech.
  • Arafat came from exile in Tunisia , signed the Oslo PEACE Accords in '93, yet the number of Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attacks increased after he signed.

And on...and on...and on... through several "PEACE" treaties until today.

Israel is abandoning every settlement in Gaza, Abbas pledges daily to "do everything he can to stop the terror attacks" and yet, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa CONTINUE TO ATTACK every single day. And you blame it on "settlements" a_u_p. That really boggles the imagination considering the wealth of EVIDENCE to the contrary staring you in the face.
 
Four Palestinians injured in south Lebanon - United Press International - Tuesday July 19, 2005

BEIRUT, Lebanon, July 19 (UPI) -- Four Palestinian refugees were injured in violence between rival Palestinian factions in a south Lebanon camp, security sources said Tuesday.

They said a bomb exploded Monday night in the refugee camp of Ain el-Hilweh near Sidon, outside the home of Fatah official Mohammed Issa. Issa's uncle was injured in the incident.

Reactions to the bombing continued until Tuesday whengunmen from Fatah and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine clashed in the camp. Three people were injured in the battle.
Is that about settlements a_u_p?
PA accuses Hamas of attacking police - United Press International - Tuesday July 19, 2005


GAZA, July 19 (UPI) -- The Palestinian Authority accused the militant organization Hamas of an attack Palestinian police in Gaza Tuesday in which nine people were injured.

The Palestinian News Agency, WAFA, quoted an official statement as saying that Hamas gunmen in the region of Jabalia surrounded Palestinian policemen and opened fire.

"The Palestinian Authority holds Hamas leadership responsible for such acts that undermine our national unity," the statement said.
Is that about settlements a_u_p?


No. None of it is about settlements. Settlements are the excuse for terror and turnspeak for terror attacks. For some reason even an intelligent bloke like you buys it. The conflict is about islamist terror organizations that have been shooting, bombing, and attacking from Lebanon to Jordan to Gaza to the West Bank for decades. And even today when all settlements are leaving Gaza it continues.
 
Fatah, Hamas Agree to End Gaza Clashes - Associated Press - Tue Jul 19, 6:20 PM ET

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The ruling Fatah movement and the Islamic Hamas agreed early Wednesday to end several days of clashes in northern Gaza that took the lives of two bystanders.

Leaders of the two movements announced the accord at a news conference after midnight in Gaza City.

"We agreed to withdraw all armed forces from the streets of northern Gaza," said local Hamas leader Mizar Rayyan.
Wow! what's this? Yet another peace agreement between Fatah and Hamas, I've lost track how many that is now but I guess I could read my links in this thread to be sure...anyhow....may peace rein across the middle east!
Hamas opens fire on home of PA official - (JP) - Jul. 19, 2005 11:28

Hamas operatives fired on the home of a Palestinian security chief in Gaza early Wednesday, hours after reaching agreement with the ruling Fatah movement to end several days of clashes between the rival factions, a top Fatah official said.

Early Wednesday - after several days of clashes in which two bystanders were killed and several people wounded - Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement cut a deal with Hamas to remove gunmen from the streets of northern Gaza.

But barely two hours later, Hamas gunmen refused to stop at a Palestinian police roadblock in Gaza, and then opened fire on the homes of Palestinian police chief, Rashid Abu Shbak, and Fatah leader Abdullah Efrangi, said Soufian Abu Zaida, a Cabinet minister and top Fatah official.
Well so much for peace across the middle east.... :(

Two hours after Hamas "cut a deal" they attacked THE HOMES of Fatah leaders. Any of this sinking in yet a_u_p? Which part of that is about settlements?

Didn't Hamas commit itself to "the truce" about 40 frikkin times now since February? This is why there has been no peace between Israel and the Palestinians. All those articles you read about the Israeli/Palestinian question 10,000 miles away in Australia ALWAYS fail to mention that these islamist groups are made up of lying murderous terrorist thugs who will sign a peace agreement and then walk out the door and wack a Palestinian or an Israeli....and they hate Israelis way more than Palestinians.

But wait there's more!
Fatah bans press on PA-Hamas clashes - (JP) - Jul. 20, 2005 3:27

The Palestinian Journalists Syndicate in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday instructed local reporters and photographers to refrain from covering the clashes between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority security forces.

In a statement, the syndicate, which is controlled by members of the ruling Fatah party said that "pictures that some journalists are conveying to the international and local public opinion don't benefit the struggle of the Palestinian people for liberation and independence."

This is not the first time that Palestinian journalists were restricted in covering internecine fighting in the Gaza Strip. Palestinian journalists complained in July 2004 that their syndicate had banned them from covering anti-PA demonstrations in the Gaza Strip. Some said they had received death threats from top PA officials.
Freedom of the press?....forgetaboutit...we need to COVER UP the truth. Perhaps a few more stories in the BBC about how "Hamas remains committed to the truce" and how "responses by Israel to stop suicide bombings, rocket and mortar attacks would be dangerous and irresponsible"....that'll keep the old lets blame Israel shell game alive.
 
Gaza infighting continues despite truce - (Al Jazeera) - Wednesday 20 July 2005, 14:11 Makka Time, 11:11 GMT

Hamas fighters have attacked the homes of the head of the Palestinian security services, and the leader in Gaza of the governing Fatah faction, just hours after a deal to end factional fighting.

Abu Zuhri said that despite the fresh clashes in Gaza City, all sides were keen to draw a line under the violence.

"There is a desire among our movement and the leaders of the Palestinian Authority (PA) to put an end to this issue and to implement this 'quiet' on the ground," he said.
On monday Al Jazeera wrote this article which said:
Hamas spokesman Mushir al-Misri told Aljazeera on Monday that the movement had reassured a visiting Egyptian security delegation of its commitment to observe the period of calm.

We have agreed on three basic points. We have reaffirmed our commitment to the 'conditional' period of calm and compliance to all that had been agreed in Cairo."
Well as we all know now by my documentation that Hamas spokesmen lie through their teeth. They lie to the Palestinian Authority, they lie to Egyptian security delegations, they lie to Israelis and they have no problem lying to the media and to the Palestinian people.

Just like we know by my documentation that in '88 when Arafat gave a speech to the U.N. renouncing terrorism he was lying - the number of Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attacks more than doubled after his speech. We also know that when Arafat signed the Oslo PEACE Accords in '93 he had no intention to live up to his obligations as the number of Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attacks increased after he signed. Do you see now a_u_p why the "settlement argument" is bogus and turnspeak?

Here we have events real-time, and as you can plainly see the emperor has no clothes... After repeated peace accords, public announcements to the media and endless "commitments to calm" the islamist terror organizations continue to attack Palestinians!

This false mantra that it is about settlements and Palestinian Nationalism is exposed for the lie that it is. It is about islamic fundamentalist organizations and their desire to rid the middle east of infidels....well now that they have to really stop terrorizing Israel in order for there to be a Palestinian state the Palestinian Authority becomes a target - because they stand in the way of that goal.
 
Re: Re: I looked...

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Demon came up with a link to support the claim.

Only with a bizare interpretation of the phrasing.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Either way, it would be 'good faith' to honor the concept when Oslo was signed. The intention of Oslo was to put in some initial conditions, and head towards a peaceful resolution after further negotiation. It appeared to require an end to conflict, but no end to more Palestinian land being taken, with 'negotiations' suddenly going nowhere.

It would be "good faith" to honor agreements as written, which means if the Palestinian-Arabs promise to crack down on terror, they should do so.

It's nonsense and evidence of extreme bias to bash one side for breaking what you percieve to be the spirit of an agreement while ignoring, denying, or excusing the other side for breaking both the spirit and the letter of the same agreement.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I think that if you are going to have a settlement between Israel and Palestinians, there has to be a stop to the expansion of settlements? No?

That's your opinion and there is nothing wrong with this opinion. However, if that's not part of the agreement, then it's not part of the agreement.
 
Mycroft said:
It's nonsense and evidence of extreme bias to bash one side for breaking what you percieve to be the spirit of an agreement while ignoring, denying, or excusing the other side for breaking both the spirit and the letter of the same agreement.
And that's the whole point. The leader of the Palestinian people renounced terrorism in front of the United Nations and the number of Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attacks more than doubled in the 12 months after that speech. The leader of the Palestinian people signed ten "peace" agreements with Israel to which the letter and the spirit obligated the Palestinian Authority to stop terrorism against Israel.

They never did.

Instead Arafat and the Palestinian Authority allowed Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades free rein of Gaza and the West Bank to attack Israel and gave them weapons, money and shelter. Arafat and the Palestinian Authority spent $100,000,000 in international aid to arm these groups and were caught red-handed when the IDF intercepted - code-named Noah's Ark - the Karine A, a 4,000-ton freighter captained by a high-ranking PA naval policeman! Of course Arafat denied any connection with the shipment and accused Israel of "propaganda" to thwart cease-fire efforts. Why?, because that is part of the game they play, the promises and the lies of turnspeak.... Even a_u_p, the Fool, Demon, Capel, Cleon and others have to admit now that Hamas, Arafat and the Palestinian Authority have no compunction lying in public. I've documented ad nauseam.

This modus operandi - promises, signing peace treaties, lying in public forums and terror - repeated itself over and over and over under the guise of "Palestinian Nationalism" and "resistance to the occupation". And so many around the world bought it hook, line and sinker.

Now, even when it is documented that Hamas will lie to the Palestinian people and any news organization that is willing to print their turnspeak some here still blame "the settlements". It truely boggles the imagination.:D
 
Here is an example of the lies and turnspeak:


Hamas urges end to inter-Palestinian clashes after attacks - (AFP) - 20, July, 2005

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Hamas said it wanted to draw a line under a bout of internal Palestinian clashes after its gunmen attacked the homes of a security chief and the Gaza leader of the governing
Awww shucks, they "promise" to make nice.... yet again... :rolleyes:.
At least seven people were injured in the exchanges of fire with bodyguards after the attacks on the home of preventive security chief Rashid Abu Shbak and the head of Fatah in Gaza, Abdallah Franji, security and Hamas sources said.
That's making nice Hamas-style.
One of the main Hamas leaders in Gaza said it was imperative that the factions reserved their fire for their common enemy, Israel
In the name of Palestinian Nationalism!
"The Hamas movement announces an end to all tension and threats in the street," Ismail Haniya told reporters.
Public lie # 1,254 since February.
"We must conserve our weapons for use only against the occupation...
AKA, we must conserve our weapons to lob rockets and mortars at Israel "to resist the occupation"!


Now sit back and enjoy the typical "blame Israel" turnspeak shell game:
Palestinian prime minister Ahmed Qorei also argued that Israel was the only beneficiary of the internal divisions.

"I believe that the Israelis are pushing us towards an internal war. We must protect ourselves from each other and be aware of these dangers," he said in the West Bank.
Wow, Israel is pushing the Palestinians towards an internal war....you heard it from the mouth of the Palestinian prime minister.;)
 
Good thing they agreed to stop firing!

What has been the actual situation since the announcements from the various Palestinian factions that the cease-fire will be honored once more, and "calm will prevail" ???

01:04 IDF: Palestinians open fire on soldiers operating near Karni crossing (Israel Radio)

01:02 Soldier wounded by mortar shell in southern Gaza (Israel Radio)

23:10 IDF troops shoot, wound Palestinian infiltrating to restricted area of northern Gaza (Israel Radio)

21:53 Palestinians, security forces exchange fire in Gaza settlement of Netzarim (Haaretz)

(all this within a three-hour time frame)

With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?
 
More lies brought to you by the Palestinian turnspeak machine:

Thursday 21/07/2005 - "Palestinian Authority Civil Affairs Minister Mohammed Dahlan said that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Hamas have the same goal: destroying the PA. ". link

Well we all know that is a bold faced lie, yet the Palestinian Authority Civil Affairs Minister has no problem saying it in public. Sharon and Hamas DO NOT have the same goal. That is turnspeak.

Yesterday Palestinian prime minister Ahmed Qorei said

"I believe that the Israelis are pushing us towards an internal war. We must protect ourselves from each other and be aware of these dangers
".

Well we all know that is a bold faced lie, yet the Palestinian Prime Minister has no problem saying it in public. Israelis ARE NOT pushing Palestinians towards an internal war. That too is turnspeak.

Thursday 21/07/2005 - "Palestinian security forces said on Thursday they were investigating the possibility that Palestinians stabbed a 12-year-old boy to death in the West Bank, after earlier saying witnesses had blamed Jewish settlers.

Immediately after the incident, a Palestinian security official said witnesses had reported the boy had been stabbed by Jewish settlers who had marched into the village, south of the West Bank city of Nablus
". link

What is the TRUTH?

"Palestinian sources said they had arrested a suspect on Thursday in the stabbing of a 12-year-old Palestinian boy Wednesday night in the West Bank village of Karyut. The sources confirmed that the suspect was a member of a rival clan" link

Yet Palestinian witnesses tried to pin it on "settlers".

Since 1993 the Palestinian Authority promised to stop terror, but it supported it, Hamas promised 50 billion times to ceasefire yet it launches rockets and mortars into Israel and shot up the home of a head of Fatah and the home of a Palestinian police chief in Gaza. Yesterday two top Palestinian Authority leaders blamed Israel for "having the same goals as Hamas" & "pushing Palestinians towards an internal war". Lies, upon lies upon lies.

Also yesterday Palestinian "witnesses" blame settlers for murdering a 12 year old Palestinian boy - and it was reported as fact - but guess what, that too was a lie.

This disinformation goes on day after day, week after week, month after month year after year, decade after decade until the lies, turnspeak and propoganda are so confusing even British academics will boycott Israelis. ;)


[edited to add]

USAID offers to buy Gaza hothouses - Jul. 21, 2005 1:05

The American government is willing to pay some $8 million to $10m. to buy the Gaza settlers' hothouses and give them to the Palestinians to save the jobs of some 4,000 Palestinians who work there, a spokeswoman for the United States Agency for International Development told The Jerusalem Post on Wednesday.
What?!?! 4000 P-a-l-e-s-t-i-n-i-a-n-s work in settlers hothouses? a_u_p your poor head must be about to explode! ;)
 
GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian gunmen killed an Israeli couple in an ambush at the Gaza border on Sunday shortly after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ended her mission to shore up a fragile truce before Israel's Gaza pullout.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, under pressure from Jewish ultranationalists who call his plan to abandon the occupied land a reward for a Palestinian uprising, promised a tough response to the shooting at the Kissufim crossing.

http://today.reuters.com/News/newsA...668642_RTRIDST_0_INTERNATIONAL-MIDEAST-DC.XML
 
Come on Mycroft the Fatah gunmen from the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades were just "resisting Israeli occupation" in the name of Palestinian Nationalism when they ambushed a car full of civilians.

And so were these folks just "resisiting occupation" Friday night:

  • Two Israel Defense Forces paratroopers were hurt when gunmen opened fire on troops in the West Bank city of Hebron on Friday evening. A Palestinian bystander was killed in the exchange of fire between troops and gunmen.
  • A Palestinian would-be suicide bomber wearing an explosives belt who planned to blow himself up in Tel Aviv was intercepted by security forces near Kibbutz Nir Am in the western Negev on Friday night, the army said. picture here (Jihad Shahada is led by an IDF soldier a short while after he had been caught.) His name is "Jihad"...how quaint.

Meanwhile in Egypt the turnspeak machine pukes out more garbage for the masses:
Extremist Egyptian analyst blames Israel for Sinai terror attacks

SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt - Less than 24 hours after terrorists killed at least 88 people in attacks on the Sinai resort town of Sharm el- Sheikh, Egyptian sources claimed that Israel was responsible for the deadly bombings.

Egyptian media analysts, sources in Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Egyptian parliamentarian Ala Hasnin, in an interview with the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera television network, all suggested Israel was responsible for the attacks.
 
all's quiet from the front

04:00 Palestinians fire two Qassam rockets at Western Negev; no casualties (Army Radio)

00:14 Palestinians fire mortar shell at south Gaza security fence; no casualties (Israel Radio)

  • Israel Defense Forces troops killed an unarmed Palestinian teenager and wounded seven Palestinians, one seriously, during a gun battle in the West Bank city of Jenin on Wednesday, Palestinian sources said. The troops entered the city to arrest a senior Islamic Jihad official.

    Most of the Palestinian casualties were armed suspects, the IDF said. The dead Palestinian was identified as Yusuf El-Hasif, 17, according to Palestinian sources. He was among several youths throwing stones at soldiers during the operation, The Associated Press reported.

As part of the current Israeli actions against the terror networks, Ibrahim Abhara, a wanted Jihad official who headed the movement's activities in the villages, was killed by the IDF last week.

It's all wayyyyyy off from the front pages...
Until another suicide attacker gets through into a downtown Israeli area.
 
how many pages?

After all these posts and page after page of discussions and remarks, a_u_p can only offer a three-word note that he was "attacked" on a "personal" level in this thread.

I only wonder what his remark would have been if his home was blown to cinders by an incoming mortar round during a "cease fire"?

Attack noted?
 

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