With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[The Fool]

Re: how many pages?

After all these posts and page after page of discussions and remarks, a_u_p can only offer a three-word note that he was "attacked" on a "personal" level in this thread.

I only wonder what his remark would have been if his home was blown to cinders by an incoming mortar round during a "cease fire"?

Attack noted?

No need to wonder what his remark would be, there are plenty of people who post here who have the ability to read his mind, just ask them what he would do...Anyway...if A_U_P didn't show up in this thread from time to time how would the little green Jrefers battle the boredom?

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: how many pages?

After all these posts and page after page of discussions and remarks, a_u_p can only offer a three-word note that he was "attacked" on a "personal" level in this thread.

I only wonder what his remark would have been if his home was blown to cinders by an incoming mortar round during a "cease fire"?

Attack noted?

There is a war on, and people will still be killed. I don't know if there is a real intent on either side to end it yet, or not.

Bear in mind, the 'cease fire' was never negotiated, IIRC, but, rather, 'a period of calm'. That is, I don't think either side expected the fire to cease, only that it would reduce.

That was hoped for because everyone expected the fire to increase, due to the radicals' intention to hammer home the message that the only significant withdrawal of settlements that has happened is due to them.

The notion that my head would explode because Palestinians work for Israelis is insulting becaues it is not true, and, once again, makes an assumption on Israeli/Palestinian relations that I don't hold. If ZN would care to make comments based on evidence and fact, and hold himself to his own standards as noted in my sig, I may not be so abrupt next time.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: how many pages?

Bear in mind, the 'cease fire' was never negotiated, IIRC, but, rather, 'a period of calm'.

Israel, Palestinians Declare CeaseFire

Jerusalem----February 8, 2005 - Israeli and Palestinian leaders declared a ceasefire at a peace summit in Egypt today...

So who's mis-representing the truth here? A_u_p? Or Abbas, Sharon and Mubarak who declared a ceasefire via negotiations in Sharm el-Sheikh? On to a_u_p's next mis-representation.

The notion that my head would explode because Palestinians work for Israelis is insulting becaues it is not true,

USAID offers to buy Gaza hothouses - (JP) - Jul. 21, 2005 1:05

The American government is willing to pay some $8 million to $10m. to buy the Gaza settlers' hothouses and give them to the Palestinians to save the jobs of some 4,000 Palestinians who work there, a spokeswoman for the United States Agency for International Development told The Jerusalem Post on Wednesday.

So who's "confused" about Palestinians working for settlers in Gaza? A_u_p? or a spokeswoman for the United States Agency for International Development and The Jerusalem Post.

 

[webfusion]

poorly worded construction of sentence

In Z-N's reply to a_u_p above, it appears that Z-N is saying that AUP denies the very fact of the Palestinian workers in the Gaza settlements and Z-N then offers a linked article to prove the fact.

However, the sentence by AUP quoted:

• "The notion that my head would explode because Palestinians work for Israelis is insulting becaues it is not true, and, once again, makes an assumption on Israeli/Palestinian relations that I don't hold."

Which I do not take to mean that he is really denying the fact of the workers, but rather denying that his head would explode! (the original source of the "insult" -- which is the basis also for T-F's remark that Z-N is simply making false assumptions about the position a-u-p holds without any specific quotes or comments in evidence from a-u-p on the subject).

The overall impression I see from all this is that
1. English is a tricky language. Sentences are sometimes not read the way they are intended.

2. AUP's head is in no danger of exploding.

3. The Fool is also battling boredom, and just dropped in to see if the cease fire is still on.

4. Everyone is counting the days until August 17th, when Israel begins a two-week withdrawal of civilians from Gaza that might very well take place under Palestinian fire, despite all assurances to the contrary, by the PA.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: how many pages?

Bear in mind, the 'cease fire' was never negotiated, IIRC, but, rather, 'a period of calm'. That is, I don't think either side expected the fire to cease, only that it would reduce.

Interesting. In order not to admit the Palestinian-Arabs are breaking a cease-fire (as is well documented in the 20 pages of this thread) you have to deny that there is a cease-fire.

So who's mis-representing the truth here? A_u_p? Or Abbas, Sharon and Mubarak who declared a ceasefire via negotiations in Sharm el-Sheikh? On to a_u_p's next mis-representation. So who's "confused" about Palestinians working for settlers in Gaza? A_u_p? or a spokeswoman for the United States Agency for International Development and The Jerusalem Post.

I'm with Webfusion on this. To be fair to AUP, he's clearly claiming his head would not explode, not that Palestinian-Arabs work for Israelis. At the same time, he's also indulging in a little bit of historical revisionism to make the cease-fire go away.

Typical.

Bear in mind, claiming the cease-fire was never negotiated would be another one of thos "facts" AUP presents without feeling it's important to fact-check. It's not specifically a slander of Israel, but as it exonerates Palestinian-Arabs of wrond-doing (sort of) he's willing to present it uncritically.

 

[zenith-nadir]

In Z-N's reply to a_u_p above, it appears that Z-N is saying that AUP denies the very fact of the Palestinian workers in the Gaza settlements and Z-N then offers a linked article to prove the fact.

It was a joke Web hardly an insult. A_u_p often has describes the settlements as evil incarnate and I wanted to show that the settlements are beneficial to the Palestinian economy. One such benefit is gainful employment for Palestinians, 4000 in Gaza alone.

Everyone is counting the days until August 17th, when Israel begins a two-week withdrawal of civilians from Gaza that might very well take place under Palestinian fire, despite all assurances to the contrary, by the PA.

Assurances from the P.A.....

12:03 28/07/2005 - link

• Palestinians fired three Qassam rockets at the southern town of Sderot and the western Negev, Army Radio reported early Thursday morning. The militants launched the homemade rockets from the area of Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip...
  
• Earlier Thursday, Palestinians fired a mortar shell at the security fence in the southern Gaza Strip.
  
• Earlier Wednesday, IDF troops discovered a 15-kilogram explosive device near the West Bank city of Nablus and detonated it in a controlled explosion.
  
• In the Gaza Strip, Palestinians fired at an IDF base near the southern Gaza settlement of Gadid. There were several other shooting incidents, but no injuries.

 

[a_unique_person]

Hmmm, now if I said that the Jews want to take all the land off the Palestinians, would there be uproar here?

 

[Mycroft]

Eh, changed my mind.

 

[webfusion]

an uproar? over what?

Hmmm, now if I said that the Jews want to take all the land off the Palestinians, would there be uproar here?

I don't even understand what this means.

Translation, someone?

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: poorly worded construction of sentence

In Z-N's reply to a_u_p above, it appears that Z-N is saying that AUP denies the very fact of the Palestinian workers in the Gaza settlements and Z-N then offers a linked article to prove the fact.

However, the sentence by AUP quoted:

• "The notion that my head would explode because Palestinians work for Israelis is insulting becaues it is not true, and, once again, makes an assumption on Israeli/Palestinian relations that I don't hold."

Which I do not take to mean that he is really denying the fact of the workers, but rather denying that his head would explode! (the original source of the "insult" -- which is the basis also for T-F's remark that Z-N is simply making false assumptions about the position a-u-p holds without any specific quotes or comments in evidence from a-u-p on the subject).

The overall impression I see from all this is that
1. English is a tricky language. Sentences are sometimes not read the way they are intended.

2. AUP's head is in no danger of exploding.

3. The Fool is also battling boredom, and just dropped in to see if the cease fire is still on.

4. Everyone is counting the days until August 17th, when Israel begins a two-week withdrawal of civilians from Gaza that might very well take place under Palestinian fire, despite all assurances to the contrary, by the PA.

I have said before, that economic dependence between Palestinians and Israelis is one of the best ways to get peace.

 

[a_unique_person]

Meanwhile, we see what a peaceful protest gets you.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/605856.html

Probe: Border Police lied about protests
The regular demonstrations against the fence, defined by participants as peaceful, frequently turn into violent clashes with the Border Police's Company 22, assigned to disperse the demonstrations.

An investigation by Haaretz has found that policemen from that company have made false accusations against demonstrators and even made arrests on the basis of those accusations. Palestinians thus detained can be held for eight days before being brought before a judge.

In other cases, soldiers gave false testimony about rock throwing and other violence when most of the protests were peaceful. However, there were instances in which Border Police were hurt by rocks thrown by demonstrators at Bil'in.

In recent weeks, three judges harshly criticized troops after watching videotapes that nullified their allegations. In at least two cases the judges questioned the excessive force used against peaceful and restrained protesters. Footage taken by Shai Caremeli-Polack, who documents the demonstrations for the organization Anarchists Against the Wall, was presented in the various court hearings and contradicted the claims of Border policemen that the conduct of demonstrators had compelled them to use batons, kick and fire tear gas directly at the demonstrators.

In the wake of one of these incidents, police officials this week harshly criticized the behavior of Company 22.

Two of the cases examined by the courts or the police's Internal Affairs Department (IAD) are detailed here. Last Friday, Bil'in residents demonstrated with Israeli and overseas human rights activists. Border Policemen arrested a Beit Lakia resident (name withheld). The troops transferred the suspect to the Judea and Samaria Police for questioning, on the grounds that he had assaulted a policeman.

Anarchists Against the Wall activists rushed to the station and showed investigators their complete documentation of the incident. The videotape, which Haaretz has also obtained, clearly shows the Border policemen violently attacking the man and kicking him after they had subdued him and held him prone on the ground. "After the investigator saw the film, he immediately decided to release the detainee and transfered the case file to IAD to review the Border Policemen's conduct," a police officer said Wednesday.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Meanwhile, we see what a peaceful protest gets you.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/605856.html

Oh my god! Police abuse? why that's a warcrime a_u_p!... luckily police abuse never ever happens in Australia...

Here's "real" news a_u_p:

Fatah kidnaps top PA security official - Jul. 28, 2005 21:23

Fatah gunmen in the Gaza Strip on Thursday kidnapped a senior Palestinian Authority security official and his wife and three children in yet another sign of continued lawlessness in PA-controlled areas.

If you didn't know Fatah is Abbas's party who runs the Palestinian Authority.

Sources in the Gaza Strip said a group of masked gunmen belonging to Fatah's armed wing, Aksa Martyrs Brigades, intercepted the car of Jihad Abed, a top official in the PA's Military Intelligence in Gaza City and took him and his family to the al-Bureij refugee camp.

Why are there still Palestinians living in refugee camps in Palestinian-controlled areas? Why do members of Fatah kidnap Fatah officials and their families?

[edited to add]

And how's the turnspeak machine doing? Why it's rolling along nicely...Splashed across the front page of Al Jazeera today:

Israeli army makes Gaza invasion plan - Al Jazeera - Friday 29 July 2005, 11:33 Makka Time, 8:33 GMT

Israeli commanders drew up contingency plans this week for a massive ground offensive in the Gaza Strip ahead of next month's pullout; but they have so far been rejected by Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz, reports said.

The proposal was put forward by the military's southern command on Tuesday after a wave of attacks by Palestinian resistance fighters; but Mofaz ruled it out for the time being because of the likely complications, the Haaretz daily said.

According to Haaretz, the army plan foresaw three full brigades reoccupying two swathes of territory around the towns of Bait Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip and Khan Yunus in the south in a bid to stop Palestinian fighters attacking Jewish settlements during their evacuation.

So the "invasion" of Gaza is to "reoccupy" in a "massive ground offensive".....then three paragraphs later the truth appears - to stop Palestinian "resistance fighters" from attacking Jewish settlements during their evacuation.

Notice how the words "invasion ", "reoccupy", "massive ground offensive" and "resistance fighters" are used.

 

[The Fool]

Oh my god! Police abuse? why that's a warcrime a_u_p!... luckily police abuse never ever happens in Australia...

ZN
What has australia got to do with this?

Anyway....police abuse...is that ok with you?

 

[zenith-nadir]

ZN What has australia got to do with this?

A_u_p linked a story about border police lying about punking on "Anarchists Against the Wall" activists. I maintain police brutality exsists in just about every country on earth, including Australia. The irony is that this involves Anarchists who are against a wall that has proven to prevent suicide bombers from killing innocent civilians...hilarious...anyhow...

Anyway....police abuse...is that ok with you?

Nope... police brutality is bad, but it pales in comparison to kidnapping Palestinian Authority Officials and their families at gunpoint, firing rockets, mortars and suicide bombers at innocent civilians.

 

[Mycroft]

ZN
What has australia got to do with this?

Anyway....police abuse...is that ok with you?

No it's not, but one wonders how it's relevent to this thread, which is about Palestinian groups breaking the cease fire.

Is he trying to claim that breaking the cease fire is justified because there are allegations some soldiers falsley accused some protesters of throwing rocks? Is Hamas launchig rockets almost daily at Jews justified because some soldiers may have beat up a protestor?

AUP doesn't say why he thinks this is relevent. It may be he simply believes we should never consider any wrongdoing by Palestinians ever, and always focus only on Israli wrongdoings.

Distraction distraction distraction...denial, revisionism, then more distraction.

 

[Mycroft]

Hmmm, now if I said that the Jews want to take all the land off the Palestinians, would there be uproar here?

I dunno, how do people normally react to pointless Jew-baiting?

 

[zenith-nadir]

UN workers kidnapped in Gaza - (AFP) - 7/29/2005

GAZA CITY (AFP) - An Australian and a Palestinian working for the United Nations were being held hostage after being kidnapped in Gaza City by masked gunmen, UN officials said.

The kidnap was claimed by relatives of an abducted Palestinian intelligence officer who were seeking to secure his freedom.

This is the future Palestinian state. Islamofascists launching mortars/rockets/suicide bombers into Israel while Islamofascists kidnap Fatah officials as other Islamofascists kidnap UN officials to "secure the freedom" of kidnapped Fatah officials.

 

[a_unique_person]

I dunno, how do people normally react to pointless Jew-baiting?

About the same way the react to Palestinian bashing, I would guess.

 

[a_unique_person]

A_u_p linked a story about border police lying about punking on "Anarchists Against the Wall" activists. I maintain police brutality exsists in just about every country on earth, including Australia. The irony is that this involves Anarchists who are against a wall that has proven to prevent suicide bombers from killing innocent civilians...hilarious...anyhow...
Nope... police brutality is bad, but it pales in comparison to kidnapping Palestinian Authority Officials and their families at gunpoint, firing rockets, mortars and suicide bombers at innocent civilians.

The complaint is often made that the Palestinians resort to violence rather than peaceful methods of protest. This is what happens when peaceful protests are done. They are accused of violence anyway, and ignored.

 

[webfusion]

peaceful protest indeed?

The complaint is often made that the Palestinians resort to violence rather than peaceful methods of protest. This is what happens when peaceful protests are done. They are accused of violence anyway, and ignored.

Peaceful protesting Palestinian-style


The complaint is properly made because they are indeed routinely violent, in the extreme.

BTW, somehow, in that article quoted, the response of the IDF was omitted:
"The area was a closed military zone."

In a closed military zone, dude, you are subject to being shot, on sight. No warning rounds are required. I can just open fire and decimate anything that moves. Period.
Standing Orders.



The heavy-handed Border Police methods are well-known to everyone (and the Border Police are often heavily manned with Bedouins who like nothing better than stomping some Palestinian protesters, on general principles). The Border Police are not regular IDF troops and you mess with them at your own risk. They are the meanest, trigger-happy forces in the territories, and just three or four of them in a jeep are sufficient to disperse a mob of several hundred "protestors" --- happens all the time! ◊◊◊◊, several times I was in a situation that wasn't easily resolved, facing a mass of Palestinian rioters with ten or twelve regular IDF troops in my patrol unit, and as soon as the Border Police jeeps rolled up as 'back up', the rioters scattered, end of riot.


BREAKING NEWS:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1122518931796

• According to initial details supplied by the army, Border Police units surrounded a home where a suspected terrorist was reportedly hiding at his parents' in Izbet Shufa (near Tulkarm) on Thursday afternoon. They called on loudspeakers for Mussa to surrender. Shortly afterwards, his brother and father informed security forces that Mussa was not at home. Security forces dispatched a sniffer dog to check the premises which located Mussa, who was hiding in a room under the roof.
  
  Border Police units entered the house and called on Mussa to surrender, but were ignored. They then threw a stun grenade and fired warning shots, aiming at the ceiling of the room in which Mussa was believed to have been hiding. Hearing a suspicious noise, they opened fire at the door of the room, fatally shooting Mussa, who died shortly afterwards from his wounds.

Border Police. Don't play games with 'em.
'Nuff said.