With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Cleon]

The closing of the roads is a result of violence from the Intifada, you know this, so it's dishonest to ascribe this to racism.

Further, as long as there is violent conflict, it's dishonest to claim there could not be integrated Palestinian-Jewish settlements. Which, incidentally, would go a long way towards advancing a one-state solution.

Wow, you guys will blame everything on the Palestinians. I'm impressed, really. Well, sort of. You'd think the settlers weren't the right-wing racist lunatics they present themselves as.

I don’t speak any Native American languages, yet the town I live in has a Native American name. I don’t know if the locals called it Judea or Samaria before Jordan took over, but clearly your "proof" that it wasn’t Judea or Samaria doesn’t hold water.

*sigh* Tell you what, Mycroft, and I'll extend this to ZN as well.

Find me one example of the local population referring to those areas as "Judea" and "Samaria" before the Zionist project. Just one. And no, references in the Torah don't count.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Your claim, bucko. If you can't justify it, don't ask others to disprove it.

Sorry Cleon, if you wish to defend a_u_p's position either you do it or he does.

In any event, that wasn't your claim. Your claim was:"the military occupation...has remained because Palestinian Islamist terror groups have been dictating Palestinian foreign policy...

And I stand by that 100%. Israel would have no need for a military occupation if the Palestinian Authority policed the thugs sending gunmen/suicide bombers from launching mortar/rockets. I do not believe for one second that the Israeli military is part of a 'right wing' Israeli conspiracy to annex Gaza and the West Bank.

"I guess if it wasn't for those terrorists running the PA, the settlements would just disappear, right?

If it wasn't for Haj amin al husseini, Arafat, Nasser, Assad and a host of other racist xenophobic psychopaths I believe that jews living amongst Palestinians wouldn't be an issue today.

Or the IDF would stop defending them?

The IDF defends settlements because they need to be defended from thugs sending gunmen/suicide bombers... and from thugs launching mortars and rockets.

Oh, puh-leaze. Palestinians are not permitted to live in the settlements, or even use their frikkin' roads. Either (try to) justify it or condemn it, but don't try to tap dance around it.

You are deliberately building a caricature of life in the West Bank and Gaza in order to play the apartheid card. Palestinians used to work on Israeli settlements and inside Israel until such time that the security threat became too great to continue that policy. You are also leaving out that Israel had to build 'settler only' roads because the security threat to settlers became so great that they had to be built - at great expense. And that is why I disagree with your strawman arguments.

Dance, dance, dance.

That type of response is one I would expect when one has no actual rebuttal to my original point.

I never, ever said that there was "no" Jewish presence, just very little of it. And before the Zionist project, you know what language those populations spoke on a daily basis? (Hint...It wasn't Hebrew.) So, I repeat, who exactly was referring to it as "Judea" and "Samaria?"

It was called judea and samaria for over 3000 years Cleon and just because I cannot catalogue all the people on earth who use the term does not mean that it was not called judea and samaria.

Wow, you guys will blame everything on the Palestinians. I'm impressed, really. Well, sort of.

Come on Cleon we are not idiots. I do not blame the "palestinians" for everything I blame their leaders for why things are the way they are today. For example, the armed conflict between Palestinians and King Hussein of Jordan - (See: Black September) - had nothing to do with settlements or jewish-only roads and had everything to do with the fact that the PLO and it's assorted Palestinian terrorist thugs were just that.

The same can be said about the full-scale civil war that broke out in '75 in Lebanon. And the same can be said about why things are the way they are between the Palestinians and Israelis today. You chalk it up to a " right wing zionist conspiracy to annex Gaza and the West Bank", I chalk it up to the PLO and it's assorted corrupt Palestinian terrorist thugs.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleon
Wow, you guys will blame everything on the Palestinians. I'm impressed, really. Well, sort of. You'd think the settlers weren't the right-wing racist lunatics they present themselves as.

The funny thing about these right-wing racist lunatic settlers…if you pay attention to how they appear in the news, they’re always the same guys. It makes me wonder how many of the 240,000 “settlers” are actually right-wing racist lunatics.

Originally posted by Cleon
*sigh* Tell you what, Mycroft, and I'll extend this to ZN as well.

Find me one example of the local population referring to those areas as "Judea" and "Samaria" before the Zionist project. Just one. And no, references in the Torah don't count.

I honestly don’t know the answer, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument. That the local population spoke Arabic doesn’t mean places couldn’t have Hebrew names. After all, Hebron was still called Hebron, wasn’t it? If it’s really important to you, couldn’t you find evidence that the locals called it something else?

 

[The Fool]

There are lots of mistakes Israel makes the fool.

Can you name one?

The Israel apologists like you and Mycroft sometimes come out with platitudes like this when pressed....Mycroft has gone as far as saying Israel is "not perfect" between the two of you, do you think you could actually name one thing Israel has done that is a "mistake" or is "not perfect"? My guess is that the only critisism of Israel either of you could nail togther would be to suggest they have not been hard enough on the population of the occupied land. But you are welcome to demonstrate how wrong I am.

There are two standout contributors to this ongoing tragedy. Palestinian terrorism and Israeli military occupation.....people who can only see one of them are simply part of the problem.

 

[a_unique_person]

Ok, I'm game....feel free to find the quotes by a_u_p which explains how the occupation came about and why it remains.

We've been over this before, if you make a claim, you have to prove it.

 

[a_unique_person]

Can you name one?

The Israel apologists like you and Mycroft sometimes come out with platitudes like this when pressed....Mycroft has gone as far as saying Israel is "not perfect" between the two of you, do you think you could actually name one thing Israel has done that is a "mistake" or is "not perfect"? My guess is that the only critisism of Israel either of you could nail togther would be to suggest they have not been hard enough on the population of the occupied land. But you are welcome to demonstrate how wrong I am.

The only criticism I have seen from other sources is that the Palestinians weren't cleared out of the West Bank and Gaza after the six day war.

On LGF, they are now calling Sharon "Arial Peres".

 

[Mycroft]

Can you name one?

The Israel apologists like you and Mycroft sometimes come out with platitudes like this when pressed....Mycroft has gone as far as saying Israel is "not perfect" between the two of you, do you think you could actually name one thing Israel has done that is a "mistake" or is "not perfect"? My guess is that the only critisism of Israel either of you could nail togther would be to suggest they have not been hard enough on the population of the occupied land. But you are welcome to demonstrate how wrong I am.

There are two standout contributors to this ongoing tragedy. Palestinian terrorism and Israeli military occupation.....people who can only see one of them are simply part of the problem.

Baiting ignored.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The only criticism I have seen from other sources is that the Palestinians weren't cleared out of the West Bank and Gaza after the six day war.

Other sources? Are you now arguing what somebody somehwere said and pretending it has relevence here?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
On LGF, they are now calling Sharon "Arial Peres".

Did you know you look at LGF more than I do? You may not like the site, but it's your eyeballs his advertisers are paying money for.

 

[Cleon]

That the local population spoke Arabic doesn’t mean places couldn’t have Hebrew names. After all, Hebron was still called Hebron, wasn’t it?

Actually, to Palestinians Hebron is known as Al-Halil. Bad example. Keep in mind Hebrew was supplanted by Aramaic long before the region became Arabic-speaking.

The possibility of Hebrew names naturally surviving (outside of religious inclinations) with the language supplanted and the culture gone is actually pretty slim. It would be a bit like modern cities in Ohio having place names derived from the Hopewell culture--possible, I suppose, but not particularly likely.

If it’s really important to you, couldn’t you find evidence that the locals called it something else?

Odd how when I make a claim, I'm expected to provide the research to back it up--but when ZN makes a claim, I'm expected to provide the research to debunk it.

 

[Mycroft]

Odd how when I make a claim, I'm expected to provide the research to back it up--but when ZN makes a claim, I'm expected to provide the research to debunk it.

It makes more sense than you asking me to back up ZN's claims. Play the game or don't.

 

[Cleon]

It makes more sense than you asking me to back up ZN's claims. Play the game or don't.

He made them, you're defending them. Either back them up or don't pester me with it.

 

[Mycroft]

He made them, you're defending them. Either back them up or don't pester me with it.

I wasn't going to, but since you were so obnoxious...

I found a bunch of old maps for sale on a website. This one, reportedly printed in 1598 clearly shows "Samaria" labeled on it.

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/WebPictures/2004/july2004/july2/july2palestine3.JPG

This one from 1857 shows both Judea and Samaria:

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/WebPictures/2004/may2004/may26A/may26palestine3.JPG

Another one from 1865:

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/MapPages619xx/61994holy.htm

Another one from 1867 shows both Judea and Sameria:

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/MapPages632xx/63203palestine.htm

This one here doesn't have Judea or Sameria labeled on it, but Jerusalem is labeled as both Jerusalem and El Kuds, and many of the surounding towns (though it's hard to read) seem to have names that could be rooted in both Hebrew or Arabic.

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/MapPages569xx/56945pal.htm

So it seems Judea and Samaria are not completely a modern reinventions of ancient names. There is certainly evidence the names were in use prior to modern Zionism.

 

[The Fool]

I wasn't going to, but since you were so obnoxious...

I found a bunch of old maps for sale on a website. This one, reportedly printed in 1598 clearly shows "Samaria" labeled on it.

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/WebPictures/2004/july2004/july2/july2palestine3.JPG

This one from 1857 shows both Judea and Samaria:

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/WebPictures/2004/may2004/may26A/may26palestine3.JPG

Another one from 1865:

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/MapPages619xx/61994holy.htm

Another one from 1867 shows both Judea and Sameria:

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/MapPages632xx/63203palestine.htm

This one here doesn't have Judea or Sameria labeled on it, but Jerusalem is labeled as both Jerusalem and El Kuds, and many of the surounding towns (though it's hard to read) seem to have names that could be rooted in both Hebrew or Arabic.

http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/MapPages569xx/56945pal.htm

So it seems Judea and Samaria are not completely a modern reinventions of ancient names. There is certainly evidence the names were in use prior to modern Zionism.

just to be clear...you are offering these maps as evidence of what the locals called the place they lived?
The ones that you mention from 1598 by Sebastian munster use biblical names mainly because He was a Franciscan monk...and these are his maps of the "holy lands" I doubt if he cared a great deal about what the area was known as by those who lived there.....He was using the ancient biblical names because that was what the maps where...maps of the "holy lands" drawn by a Franciscan.

In fact...the rest pretty much all seem the same....maps of the "holy lands" by european christians...Is this what you you want to base your case on?

 

[Cleon]

So it seems Judea and Samaria are not completely a modern reinventions of ancient names. There is certainly evidence the names were in use prior to modern Zionism.

Amazing, the Europeans used Biblical names. Wow, I'm impressed.

Somehow, I doubt the locals were using English-language maps.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I found a bunch of old maps for sale on a website. This one, reportedly printed in 1598 clearly shows "Samaria" labeled on it. This one from 1857 shows both Judea and Samaria:http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/WebPictures/2004/may2004/may26A/may26palestine3.JPG

You'll never win this debate Mycroft. Why? This is a great example. They ask for evidence, you give it to them and now they object to the evidence you provided with ridiculous claims such as "Amazing, the Europeans used Biblical names." and "maps of the "holy lands" by european christians...Is this what you you want to base your case on?...

You can't win with these guys even if they see the evidence with their own eyes. Why those maps aren't real maps Mycroft.... why they were made by "Europeans"....and worse than that, "christian europeans" to boot.

Jewish maps are not real maps either, because they will have been made by "jews". The maps they really want to see, and will accept, are Palestinian maps which do not have the words Judea and Samaria on them. Then and only then shall they be real maps Mycroft. ...and that is why I do not jump through their hoops when they ask for 'evidence'....

 

[a_unique_person]

You'll never win this debate Mycroft. Why? This is a great example. They ask for evidence, you give it to them and now they object to the evidence you provided with ridiculous claims such as "Amazing, the Europeans used Biblical names." and "maps of the "holy lands" by european christians...Is this what you you want to base your case on?...

You can't win with these guys even if they see the evidence with their own eyes. Why those maps aren't real maps Mycroft.... why they were made by "Europeans"....and worse than that, "christian europeans" to boot.

Jewish maps are not real maps either, because they will have been made by "jews". The maps they really want to see, and will accept, are Palestinian maps which do not have the words Judea and Samaria on them. Then and only then shall they be real maps Mycroft. ...and that is why I do not jump through their hoops when they ask for 'evidence'....

I'm still waiting for evidence I have called you on. My guess is I'll be waiting a long time. As for the Judea, Samaria issue, you will note it is a map of Palestine....

 

[Cleon]

You'll never win this debate Mycroft. Why? This is a great example. They ask for evidence, you give it to them and now they object to the evidence you provided with ridiculous claims such as "Amazing, the Europeans used Biblical names." and "maps of the "holy lands" by european christians...Is this what you you want to base your case on?...

Ah, the ZN dance again. You said these lands were known for "3000 years" as Judea and Samaria...I asked by who.

Well, now we know--Europeans. Not by the people actually living there.


Fancy that.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Ah, the ZN dance again. You said these lands were known for "3000 years" as Judea and Samaria...I asked by who. Well, now we know--Europeans. Not by the people actually living there.

Yes, yes, Cleon we all know now from the copious amounts of evidence that you provided throughout this thread that "no arab or jew in early Palestine ever really used the words Judea and Samaria"... and that Mycroft's maps are invalid because they are "European christian" maps.

I'm still waiting for evidence I have called you on.

I have been providing evidence for nearly a year now and you still claim the same things you said a year ago a_u_p. I think you do not require any more evidence of any kind. Your mind is made up.

My guess is I'll be waiting a long time.

Good guess.

As for the Judea, Samaria issue, you will note it is a map of Palestine....

It's really not an issue a_u_p. Areas inside Palestine were known as Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. The real issue is that after Mycroft provided several maps from several time periods the only map 'skeptics' like the fool and Cleon will find acceptable is one without the words Judea and Samaria on it...

 

[Cleon]

Yes, yes, Cleon we all know now from the copious amounts of evidence that you provided throughout this thread that "no arab or jew in early Palestine ever really used the words Judea and Samaria"... and that Mycroft's maps are invalid because they are "European christian" maps.

Dance, dance, dance...

So we have a situation where the only people who called those areas "Judea" and "Samaria" were Europeans. You think this legitimizes colonization of Jewish-only settlements of the area.

Forgive me if I disagree.

 

[zenith-nadir]

So we have a situation where the only people who called those areas "Judea" and "Samaria" were Europeans.

And the foundation/evidence for that claim is?

Who, exactly, was referring to it as "Judea" and "Samaria?" Not the people who actually lived there, that's for sure.

And the foundation/evidence for that claim is?

The possibility of Hebrew names naturally surviving (outside of religious inclinations) with the language supplanted and the culture gone is actually pretty slim. It would be a bit like modern cities in Ohio having place names derived from the Hopewell culture--possible, I suppose, but not particularly likely.

And the foundation/evidence for that 1) opinion and 2) additional hypothetical is?

And herein lies the issue. You make claims about the validity of the words judea and samaria with no supporting evidence, zero foundation and no first-hand knowledge. Then, when Mycroft goes out of his way to provide several different maps from different time periods which show the words judea and samaria on them you and the fool label the maps "European christian maps" and dismiss them.

The reality is A) you do not really know that only europeans refered to those areas as judea and samaria and B) you do not really know how many jews or arabs in Palestine used the words judea and samaria between 0 AD and 1949 AD and C) you do not really know that the possibility of hebrew names naturally surviving is actually pretty slim.

You think this legitimizes colonization of Jewish-only settlements of the area.

And then - after all that lack of evidence - you switch gears and dredge up the tired old colonization-apartheid strawman.