With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[zenith-nadir]

PRE-ISRAEL

• The first real leader of the Palestinians, Haj Amin Al-Husseini, leads anti-jewish riots in the 20s, 30s and conspires with Hitler to wipe out jews in the 40s.
  

Maybe you could tell us all what responsibility Israeli policies and actions have had in prolonging this ongoing tragedy a_u_p & the Fool?

POST-ISRAEL - PRE-OCCUPATION

• The Arab states - along with the Palestinians - try to destroy Israel by wars in 1948 & 1956.
• The PLO - the Palestinian nationalist umbrella organization - is founded in 1964 and uses fedayeen militia groups to terrorize and murder Israelis in the 60s.

Maybe you could tell us all what responsibility Israeli policies and actions have had in prolonging this ongoing tragedy a_u_p & the Fool?


1965, 66, 67

• Syria's attacks on Israel grow more frequent.
• Nasser's rhetoric becomes increasingly bellicose.
• Arab terrorist attacks grow more frequent. In 1965, 35 attacks were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41.
• On May 15th, 1967 Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border.
• On May 16th, 1967 Nasser orders the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw.
• On May 18th, 1967 Syrian troops begin moving into the Golan Heights.
• On May 22, 1967 Egypt closes the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping.
• On May 30th, 1967 King Hussein of Jordan signs a defense pact with Egypt.

Maybe you could tell us all what responsibility Israeli policies and actions had in causing the Six Day War and the resulting occupation a_u_p & the Fool?

POST-ISRAEL - POST-OCCUPATION

• The Arab states - along with the Palestinians - try to destroy Israel, yet again, by war in 1973.
• The PLO - the Palestinian nationalist umbrella organization - uses fedayeen militia groups to terrorize and murder Israelis across the globe - including at the Olympics! - in the 70s and 80s.
• The second leader of the Palestinians - and leader of the PLO - Yasser Arafat, becomes the President of the Palestinian Authority and continues to support/harbor/finance fedayeen militia groups to terrorize and murder Israelis throughout the 90s into the 21st century.

Maybe you could tell us all what responsibility Israeli policies and actions have had in prolonging this ongoing tragedy a_u_p & the Fool?

 

[a_unique_person]

9.999 out of 10, awaiting sources.....

 

[zenith-nadir]

9.999 out of 10, awaiting sources.....

That's the whole point a_u_p. There is no rebuttal. You can't debate historcal records and events as if they didn't happen. Israeli policies and actions have not had a prolonging effect in this ongoing tragedy...quite the opposite...Arab policies and actions have had the prolonging effect in this ongoing tragedy between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

IDF arrests would-be suicide bomber Friday May. 27, 2005

A young Palestinian man who allegedly planned to launch a suicide bomb attack inside Israel was arrested by IDF forces in the Nablus area Friday afternoon.

The Palestinian approached the Beit Iba checkpoint near Nablus carrying an explosives belt hidden in a bag under a pile of clothes.

That is why there are checkpoints folks, because of terrorism...terrorism is not because of checkpoints a_u_p and the fool... why?...because one can easily demonstrate that the terrorism predates the checkpoints.

 

[Mycroft]

Didn't I already say, in this thread "I don't deny that".

Okay, so you just minimize its importance virtually to the point of non-existence and focus only on what can be blamed on Israel/Jews/Zionists.

 

[zenith-nadir]

More ceasefire:

UPI

TEL AVIV, Israel, May 29 (UPI) -- The Israeli army said Sunday its troops shot and killed two Palestinians in separate incidents and Palestinians fired mortars at Jewish settlements.

The Israeli army said a soldier shot a Palestinian youth armed with a knife who tried to stab him at a check point near the West Bank town of Hebron.

In a separate incident, the army said troops fired at three Palestinians who opened fire first at soldiers in the northern West Bank village of Arraba overnight, killing one Palestinian and injuring the others.

In the Gaza Strip, Palestinians fired mortars and locally made al-Qassam rockets at nearby Jewish settlements, but no injuries or damage was reported.

The Associated Press and Haaretz

An Israel Defense Forces armored vehicle hit a roadside bomb near the workers gate at the Erez border crossing in the Gaza Strip, Israel Radio reported Friday.

A Palestinian man was killed in an explosion in the northern Gaza Strip, hospital officials said early Saturday. The explosion occurred outside a building in the town of Beit Lahiya, which is just north of Gaza City. Residents identified the man as a 21-year-old member of the militant group Hamas. Two other men in the 20s were moderately wounded in the blast, hospital officials said. Palestinian police sources said the militant was most likely killed while preparing an explosive device.

Earlier Friday a Palestinian youth was arrested at a checkpoint near the town of Nablus in the West Bank when IDF soldiers found an explosives belt in his belongings. The belt was intended to be used in a terror attack in Israel. The soldiers detained the youth after noticing wires coming out his bag.

....and that's the point a_u_p, the fool, Cleon, Capel, Demon and all others. The terror doesn't stop even under a declared ceasefire, the terror didn't stop before there was an occupation, the terror didn't stop after the occupation, the terror doesn't stop even for a day or an hour. It hasn't stopped since the first anti-jewish riots of 1920. While you guys pawn it off on "settlements", "humiliation", "sharon's policies" or "Israel colonialism", I pawn it off on terrorists and palestinian militant groups who are the ones "prolonging this ongoing tragedy".

 

[The Fool]

....and that's the point a_u_p, the fool, Cleon, Capel, Demon and all others. The terror doesn't stop even under a declared ceasefire, the terror didn't stop before there was an occupation, the terror didn't stop after the occupation, the terror doesn't stop even for a day or an hour. It hasn't stopped since the first anti-jewish riots of 1920. While you guys pawn it off on "settlements", "humiliation", "sharon's policies" or "Israel colonialism", I pawn it off on terrorists and palestinian militant groups who are the ones "prolonging this ongoing tragedy".

what is your final solution ZN?.....you are in a frenzy about the cease fire. The fact that the vast majority of people see it as a cease fire matters not....you so want it to just go away.

You believe the cease fire is over...or never started...so what is your final solution?

 

[Mycroft]

what is your final solution ZN?.....you are in a frenzy about the cease fire. The fact that the vast majority of people see it as a cease fire matters not....you so want it to just go away.

You believe the cease fire is over...or never started...so what is your final solution?

Today's news:

Gaza City car blast kills 3 Al Aksa members

Three members of a Hamas cell were killed and two were wounded seriously Sunday evening when a car exploded in the Sagiyah neighborhood in Gaza City, Palestinians said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...le/ShowFull&cid=1117333098128&p=1078397702269

You see, terrorism is dangerous work. Sometimes the bomb goes off early, sometimes the explosives you’re transporting to Brahim the belt-maker aren’t as stable as they should be. It’s one thing when you die in glorious battle, earning your right to knock on the gates of paradise with the skulls of the Jewish children from that school bus you blew up, it’s quite another thing to accidentally off yourself and a couple of your Hamas buddies by driving over that pot-hole too quickly.

What else have we got?

RPG kills Hamas man as he tries to fire it

A Hamas member was killed in the Gaza Strip on Sunday as he tried to fire a rocket-propelled grenade at nearby Israeli targets, the Israeli Army said.

Poetic justice for this guy trying but failing to maintain his end in the cease fire. Later on in the same article it says:

In a separate incident, in Gaza City, two Palestinians were hurt in a mysterious explosion. Palestinian police said they were investigating.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...le/ShowFull&cid=1117333097761&p=1078397702269

Mysterious explosion? More like a work accident similar to the accident in the first story. Bummer. You know, these guys offing themselves will go down in those statistics of "Palestinians killed" AUP likes to quote. You know, whenever he wants to "prove" Israel is somehow wrong because so many more Palestinian-Arabs die in the conflict. Of course, he’s not interested in how many of those are self-inflicted.

The point isn’t that anyone wants to trash the cease-fire, the point is a cease fire where one side hasn’t ceased firing isn’t a cease fire. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

And what exactly is your problem with recognizing a simple truth like, "Hey! It looks like we don’t have this part of the process down yet. Let’s slow down, figure out how to make it right, then move along to the next step!" Instead you act as though you need to maintain this sense of denial. Why?

 

[a_unique_person]

Mysterious explosion? More like a work accident similar to the accident in the first story. Bummer. You know, these guys offing themselves will go down in those statistics of "Palestinians killed" AUP likes to quote. You know, whenever he wants to "prove" Israel is somehow wrong because so many more Palestinian-Arabs die in the conflict. Of course, he’s not interested in how many of those are self-inflicted.

The point isn’t that anyone wants to trash the cease-fire, the point is a cease fire where one side hasn’t ceased firing isn’t a cease fire. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

And what exactly is your problem with recognizing a simple truth like, "Hey! It looks like we don’t have this part of the process down yet. Let’s slow down, figure out how to make it right, then move along to the next step!" Instead you act as though you need to maintain this sense of denial. Why?

I have said it before, and been attacked for it, the violence is going to go on for several more years, even if there is a declaration of peace. The momentum is not going to be stopped that easily, now that it has built up. Extremists cells will ignore calls for a cease fire.

To blame Abbas is pointless. The US has a massive police force and about a million in prison, yet crime continues. Dubya can't stop it.

The Norther Ireland process is still painfully winding down, but every step of the process has been difficult, and for every two steps forward, there has been one stop back. Look at any terrorist war in the world, the situation is the same, whether it is Ireland, Spain, Sri Lanka, or other places.

 

[a_unique_person]

Okay, so you just minimize its importance virtually to the point of non-existence and focus only on what can be blamed on Israel/Jews/Zionists.

I have conceded about 1 million percent more than you ever have.

 

[Mycroft]

I have conceded about 1 million percent more than you ever have.

When you have a dozen or more different ways the Palestine-Arab leadership creates a culture of death to promote suicide terror, and you have full knowledge of it all and still the only factor you want to give any weight to is Israel, then you haven’t conceded anything.

 

[a_unique_person]

The problem isn’t that they can’t stop it all, the problem is they don’t try. We’ve talked about this before, is this more denial from you?

Abbas attemps to re-organise the security forces are well publicised. "Don't try" is just simply wrong.

Blaming Abbas isn't the only option. It could be he just needs more help in maintaining control. Maybe he needs time. The point is to look at the problem and find a solution, not just to pretend it doesn't exist or assume nothing can be done.

Also, how many times are you going to beat that "US has massive police force... dead horse? I've said many time that if the Palestinian-Arabs put the same effort into curbing terror as any police force puts into arresting criminals, I'd be more than happy. The point is they don't. We've talked about Palestinian revolving-door justice, the suspects that aren’t arrested, the fake break-outs and the ones who just get released when the attention goes away... the point isn't that they're unable to stop terror, the point is they don't try.

Like I said above. There is also evidence that Arafat did try to implement peaceful resistence. It failed, just look at Oslo. Initial violence was reduced. It produced nothing but talks that went no-where.

If that's the model we should look at, then let's look. Did the British consider it a cease fire if the Irish didn't cease firing?

Yes. They persevered.

When you have a dozen or more different ways the Palestine-Arab leadership creates a culture of death to promote suicide terror, and you have full knowledge of it all and still the only factor you want to give any weight to is Israel, then you haven’t conceded anything.

As I said, I have conceded a lot more than you have, which is still nothing.

 

[zenith-nadir]

There is also evidence that Arafat did try to implement peaceful resistence. It failed, just look at Oslo. Initial violence was reduced. It produced nothing but talks that went no-where.

The Oslo accords were signed on September 13, 1993 a_u_p. Terror attacks went up, initial violence was not reduced.

what is your final solution ZN?.....you are in a frenzy about the cease fire. The fact that the vast majority of people see it as a cease fire matters not....you so want it to just go away.

How obtuse. I can guarantee you that "most people" do not see mortars, rockets, suicide bombers and shooting at school buses with anti-tank rockets as a "ceasefire". Allthough you do. Either there is a ceasefire or there is not. You can't have Palestinian islamists attacking daily and call it a ceasefire in good faith.

You believe the cease fire is over...or never started...so what is your final solution?

I expect the Palestinian Authority to abide by the peace treaties they signed with Israel. They are in order;

• Israel-PLO Recognition, September 9-10, 1993
• Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, (Oslo 1) September 13, 1993
• Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, May 4, 1994
• Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities (Israel-PLO), August 29, 1994
• Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, September 28, 1995
• Agreement on Temporary International Presence in Hebron, May 9, 1996
• The Wye River Plantation Agreement (1998)
• The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement (1999)
• Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) June 15 2001
• The Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution October 2002

Every single one of these agreements calls for the Palestinian Authority to stop the Palestinian islamist terror groups from attacking Israel. Well the fool, ten agreements later AND twelve years after the first agreement - even under a decalred "ceasefire" - the Palestinian islamist terror groups have not stopped attacking Israel.

Palestinian security forces and other witnesses said that shortly after midnight Sunday - (May 29th, 2005) - the Israeli warplanes targeted members of al-Quds Brigades who were preparing to fire locally made rockets at the Israeli town of Sederot from Beit Lahya in northern Gaza.

 

[zenith-nadir]

When you have a dozen or more different ways the Palestine-Arab leadership creates a culture of death to promote suicide terror, and you have full knowledge of it all and still the only factor you want to give any weight to is Israel, then you haven’t conceded anything.

Abbas: Suicide bomb era may be over - May. 30, 2005

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said in an interview aired on Sunday that the era of suicide bombings may be over.

"We have started to deal with the culture of violence," he said. "We stopped the culture of violence and the Palestinian people have started looking at it as something that should be condemned and it should stop."

Eventhough there was several suicide bombers caught by the IDF in the past two weeks Abbas admits a "culture of violence" a_u_p. Time you should too.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Abbas attemps to re-organise the security forces are well publicised. "Don't try" is just simply wrong.

Great, and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, not one single terrorist has ever been arrested, charged and convicted by the Palestinian-Authority. Ever. Since Oslo, since Abbas took over. This is not analogous to police not being able to stop crime, it’s that the police don’t consider it a crime.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Like I said above. There is also evidence that Arafat did try to implement peaceful resistence. It failed, just look at Oslo. Initial violence was reduced. It produced nothing but talks that went no-where.

No there isn’t. This is historical revisionism from you. You’ve been shown the statistics dozens of times, they always show an increase in violence. The truth is the exact opposite of what you claim.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
As I said, I have conceded a lot more than you have, which is still nothing.

When you can let go of your revisionist history, then you can talk.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Associated Press - May 30th, 2005

In other developments Monday:

_Militants carried out two attempted attacks on Israeli forces in southern Gaza, firing an anti-tank missile in one instance, causing no damage or injuries, the army said.

_Sufian Abu Zaydeh, the Palestinian minister in charge of prisoner affairs, said the Palestinian Authority has suspended plans to execute two dozen Palestinians convicted of collaborating with Israel, fearing that putting the inmates to death would inflame tensions with Israel.

Sorry, we won't execute you today because it might piss off the Israelis...

 

[Mycroft]

Sorry, we won't execute you today because it might piss off the Israelis...

What I don't understand is when I read stuff like this:
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/44744.htm

ISRAEL OKS RELEASE OF TERRORIST PRISONERS

May 30, 2005 -- JERUSALEM — Israel's Cabinet voted yesterday to free 400 Palestinian prisoners, amid passionate debate over whether the move would advance the peace process.

Those who will be freed were convicted of terrorist activities but have no blood on their hands, Israeli officials insist.

Okay, they don't have "blood on their hands", they just gave the bomb to the guy who did the dirty work.

How does this advance peace? All this has accomplished is to put 400 more people on the street who support terrorist violence agianst Israel. Also, if Israel is to release them, why not at least demand the Palestinian-Arabs give up their "collaborators" in return? How can Israel be taken seriously when they keep giving concessions without demanding anything in return?

 

[Mycroft]

Is self defense okay?

IAF hits rocket team in Gaza

The Israel Air Force struck a Palestinian cell preparing to fire Qassam rockets in northern Gaza.

This is the second time since the declaration of the truce that the IAF intercepted a mortar or rocket team. (Hanan Greenberg)

Or

Shots fired at IDF post in Gaza

Palestinians fired at an IDF position near Rafah on Monday morning.

According to Israel Radio, there were no injuries.

So does anyone suppose Abbas will make any effort to arrest these people breaking the cease fire?

 

[zenith-nadir]

How does this advance peace?

By buying Abbas more time.

All this has accomplished is to put 400 more people on the street who support terrorist violence agianst Israel. Also, if Israel is to release them, why not at least demand the Palestinian-Arabs give up their "collaborators" in return? How can Israel be taken seriously when they keep giving concessions without demanding anything in return?

Because the world doesn't demand anything of the Palestinians. It is up to Israel to make peace with the Palestinians by A) giving up land, B) not hunting terrorists, C) releasing all the Palestinian prisoners, D) demolishing the wall, E) giving up half of Jerusalem, F) allowing the total and complete 'right of return' and G) not responding to terror attacks. Hell, Sufian Abu Zaydeh - the Palestinian minister in charge of prisoner affairs - really wanted to execute collaborators but he said himself that it may inflame tensions with Israel, so once again Israel is at fault - for not letting the Palestinians execute collaborators that is.

Is self defense okay?

No. Self defence is perpetuating the "cycle of violence"...haven't you heard? The Palestinian militant groups have successfully argued that they have to "retaliate" for Israeli state terrorism...AKA "self defense".

 

[The Fool]

How obtuse. I can guarantee you that "most people" do not see mortars, rockets, suicide bombers and shooting at school buses with anti-tank rockets as a "ceasefire". Allthough you do. Either there is a ceasefire or there is not. You can't have Palestinian islamists attacking daily and call it a ceasefire in good faith.

so as you believe the cease fire is over, or more precisely...never started..... what is your final solution?

Every single one of these agreements calls for the Palestinian Authority to stop the Palestinian islamist terror groups from attacking Israel.



So is it your belief that the PA could, by decree, end all the attacks?

 

[a_unique_person]

Great, and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, not one single terrorist has ever been arrested, charged and convicted by the Palestinian-Authority. Ever. Since Oslo, since Abbas took over. This is not analogous to police not being able to stop crime, it’s that the police don’t consider it a crime.




No there isn’t. This is historical revisionism from you. You’ve been shown the statistics dozens of times, they always show an increase in violence. The truth is the exact opposite of what you claim.



When you can let go of your revisionist history, then you can talk.

Hang on, classic logical fallacy. You don't have to concede anything, because you say I have a fault with my argument.