With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[a_unique_person]

I'm sorry you don't like the way you're perceived. Three guesses on how you can change it.

You can start by avoiding the woo-woo mind reading exercises, "Sharon now believes..." and the historical revisionism, and acknowledge that desperation causes people to sue for peace and get angry at their own leaders who torpedo the process, and artificially created aspiration through manipulation of the culture by the Palestinian-Authority is what channels anger into becoming suicide bombers.

I'll give you a tip to keep our exchanges more civil. Next time you think I am saying something, especially something 'subtle', that might not be too clear, just ask me first, and get my point clarified. That's what other people tend to do. Typically, they will ask "AUP, are you saying that....", or "AUP, I don't understand...". It may be a weakness in argument on my part, for which I will apoligise, for not making myself clear. But it will save a lot of acrimony, and lead to a more civil forum. If you are going to make what I believe are outrageous accusations, it would be best if you make sure of what I am claiming before you do so.

 

[Mycroft]

I'll give you a tip to keep our exchanges more civil. Next time you think I am saying something, especially something 'subtle', that might not be too clear, just ask me first, and get my point clarified. That's what other people tend to do. Typically, they will ask "AUP, are you saying that....", or "AUP, I don't understand...". It may be a weakness in argument on my part, for which I will apoligise, for not making myself clear. But it will save a lot of acrimony, and lead to a more civil forum. If you are going to make what I believe are outrageous accusations, it would be best if you make sure of what I am claiming before you do so.

So are you now conceding all points and just saving face by lecturing me on style?

 

[a_unique_person]

So are you now conceding all points and just saving face by lecturing me on style?

I am conceding nothing, I am pointing out that abusive attacks by yourself can be avoided by just asking first, for example, if I am referring to "The Six Day War", or not. I wasn't, and I was not indulging in any 'subtle shifts'.

 

[Mycroft]

I am conceding nothing, I am pointing out that abusive attacks by yourself can be avoided by just asking first, for example, if I am referring to "The Six Day War", or not. I wasn't, and I was not indulging in any 'subtle shifts'.

How else could I interpret, "The occupation allowed the expansion of the settlements." when "the occupation" was the result of the Six Day war? And even that was a change in topic from your refusal to acknowledge any Arabic contributions to suicide terror.

Are you going to continue to minimize that?

 

[The Fool]

So are you now conceding all points and just saving face by lecturing me on style?

grow up Mycroft, at least some people are still interested in trying to channel you towards productive discussion. Personally I have less patience.....

 

[Mycroft]

grow up Mycroft, at least some people are still interested in trying to channel you towards productive discussion. Personally I have less patience.....

Baiting ignored.

 

[RandFan]

Baiting ignored.

A little sauce for the gander.

Mycroft, I have never noted anything but honest and serious debate from you. Hang in there.

 

[webfusion]

the factoid

Meanwhile, my 'factoid' has remained ignored and my question still goes unanswered:

"What specifically happened in 1994 that prompted the suicide attacks to begin?"

===============================

There is a cease-fire right now. It is holding in the most fragile way. It is being honored in the breach by Israel. HAMAS and Islamic Jihad are trying to scuttle it, in various ways. Just look at the news.

Every Tuesday and Thursday something else threatens to collapse it totally. Mostly the breaking is on the part of the Islamic terrorists, as their suicide attackers are lined-up and ready to go.

===============================

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Interesting article about South African Apartheid and the Israel - Palestinian/Arab conflict.

(A very lively reader's feedback discussion follows)

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: the factoid

Meanwhile, my 'factoid' has remained ignored and my question still goes unanswered:

"What specifically happened in 1994 that prompted the suicide attacks to begin?"

===============================

There is a cease-fire right now. It is holding in the most fragile way. It is being honored in the breach by Israel. HAMAS and Islamic Jihad are trying to scuttle it, in various ways. Just look at the news.

I was waiting for you to provide it.

 

[a_unique_person]

A little sauce for the gander.

Mycroft, I have never noted anything but honest and serious debate from you. Hang in there.

So how did I make 'subtle' insinuations about the six day war? I honeslty missed that part, but not the attack on me for being a woo for 'subtly' bringing it up.

 

[a_unique_person]

How else could I interpret, "The occupation allowed the expansion of the settlements." when "the occupation" was the result of the Six Day war? And even that was a change in topic from your refusal to acknowledge any Arabic contributions to suicide terror.

Are you going to continue to minimize that?

All I did was refer to the occcupation. There is an occupation, isn't there? The fact that there is an occupation has meant that settlements have been able to expand for the duration of the occupation.

 

[Mycroft]

All I did was refer to the occcupation. There is an occupation, isn't there? The fact that there is an occupation has meant that settlements have been able to expand for the duration of the occupation.

The "subtle" part was the way you changed the topic from the Palestinian-Arabs purposeful creation of a culture of death to this. When I aksed you why you continue to deny it, you used profanity and told me it was a "dishonest accusation."

You never did address it. Will you?

 

[a_unique_person]

The "subtle" part was the way you changed the topic from the Palestinian-Arabs purposeful creation of a culture of death to this. When I aksed you why you continue to deny it, you used profanity and told me it was a "dishonest accusation."

You never did address it. Will you?

And I replied, quite simply, that a hostile military occupation can contribute to this culture.

 

[Mycroft]

And I replied, quite simply, that a hostile military occupation can contribute to this culture.

That’s why I say you’re guilty of denial. You want to deny the role the Palestinian-Arab leadership plays in creating this culture. It’s the relentless attacks that keep the occupation going, and in an act of revisionism you want to reverse that.

It’s good propaganda. On the surface there is a sheen of logic that holds it together if you don’t look at it too closely. Someone could look at it and say, yeah, that kinda makes sense. I’d be angry too if I were occupied, so I guess that’s part of their anger too.

The only thing is world wide there have been lots of occupations where people don’t become suicide bombers. Kurds, Baluchs, Basques, Tibetans...these conflicts have gone on as long or longer, often with violence, but you don’t get the suicide terror nor the purposeful sabotage of the peace process.

For that you need so many other things.

Fateh members passing out candy to children when there is a successful attack. Summer camps that teach children guerrilla fighting. Television commercials that tell children to "put down your toys and pick up rocks." Music videos that glorify recent martyrs. Family members being encouraged (pressured) to celebrate the deaths of their loved ones as they would a wedding. Pictures of martyrs in schools. Streets, schools and hospitals are named for suicide bombers.

Ignoring all this and crediting only "the occupation" is pure denial. You should be ashamed and embarrassed.

 

[The Fool]

Ignoring all this and crediting only "the occupation" is pure denial. You should be ashamed and embarrassed.

Ignoring all this and crediting only "incitement" is pure denial. You should be ashamed and embarrassed....

As a person who I have never observed to find a single fault with any actions of Israel (please help me by finding me one) I wonder if you can see the humor in the constant accusations of Bias that you throw around.

 

[Mycroft]

Ignoring all this and crediting only "incitement" is pure denial. You should be ashamed and embarrassed....

As a person who I have never observed to find a single fault with any actions of Israel (please help me by finding me one) I wonder if you can see the humor in the constant accusations of Bias that you throw around.

The very topic of this thread is how we only have expectations of the Israelis. You and AUP demonstrate that very well.

It used to be I would start a thread with pictures of Palestinians dancing after an attack, or with an article about a suicide bombers family celebrating their death as a wedding. You used to get mad at me, claiming I was portraying Palestinian-Arabs as less than human or barbaric.

Well, here I am not doing that. I'm telling you exactly why Palestinian-Arabs dance in the street after a brutal attack on civilians or celebrate their loved ones martyrdom. It's not because they're less human or less civilized, it's because they're taught to do it. They have little choice, the Palestinian-Authority encourages it.

Bias is a mild word. You two are in denial.

 

[a_unique_person]

Didn't I already say, in this thread "I don't deny that".

I have also gone on record as not being a fan of Arafat. I have also read about Palestinians grieving for their family members who have been suicide bombers. I have also lamented what I see to be a prolonged breakdown in Palestinians society. (Something that many seem to actually celebrate, it proves the Palestinians are animals and only worthy of contempt).

I am not Islamic, if I was such a fan of Islam, I would be, but I don't agree with much about the religion, but then, I find faults with all the religions. I think they Palestinians could have, with a better leader, achieved more than they did under Arafat.

That doesn't mean I don't think the occupation is a good thing, or just.

I was PM'd once by someone here who pointed out that I am dogged in the pursuit of a point. Maybe that means I am really just OCD, who knows. All I have done is pursue a point that I think is true for this many years, that the Palestinians have the short end of the stick. I thought it then, and, after too many years, and learning a lot more about the situation now than I knew then, still think it is basically true.

 

[The Fool]

Bias is a mild word. You two are in denial.

"suicide Bombers" are murderers.
Many Palestinians and many surrounding regimes and many of thier people have a racist hatred of Israelis.
The PA has a long history of corruption and incitement to violence.
Arafat has missed many opportunities to improve the lot of palestinians.
Many Palestinians see the Israelis as just the next wave of European colonists come to humiliate and oppress them. This is not an accurate summation of the goals of The large majority of Israelis...

All these things I have said before, all these things you ignore. You need a contrary position to argue against and as I seem unwilling to provide it you simply claim I deny these things. You simply nail your prefered opposing view to whoever you see.

Now Mycroft, as you are not a rank apologist for Israel and don't believe that there is no contribution from israel to this tragedy maybe you could tell us what responsibility Israeli policies and actions have had in prolonging this ongoing tragedy?

Anything you want to tell us that is not consistant with being an Israeli apologist?

 

[webfusion]

Limited time available right now

a_u_p tells me:
I was waiting for you to provide it.

Provide what?
News of the day showing how the Palestinian terror organizations are making every effort to disrupt the truce?

May 27th, 2005
10:47 IDF troops in central Gaza safely detonate 40-kilogram explosive device at roadside (Israel Radio)
11:08 Palestinians open fire with automatic weapons near Kadim settlement in West Bank (Israel Radio)
0:36 Mortar shell fired at Gush Katif settlement (Israel Radio)


or the reason why suicide attacks began in 1994?

As I said, I have limited time right now to sit and do the research on the Internet. At the conclusion of this holiday weekend, my schedule will allow me more leisure to go into greater detail, assuming that nobody else has offered the information in the meantime...

 

[The Fool]

Re: Limited time available right now

Provide what?
News of the day showing how the Palestinian terror organizations are making every effort to disrupt the truce?

Every effort? Do you think they are doing all they could to end the cease fire? My opinion would be that they could blow this cease fire to pieces any time they wished. I would assume they would have enough weapons and people to engage in full on warfare if they wanted to...The IDF could also end it anytime they wanted as well. Surely the only reason its holding is that all parties are exercising a degree of restraint and want to see it continue.