With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Elind]

Please remember your Membership Agreements and what this section of the forum is supposed to be used for.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

OK boss

In future when people go looking for insults that were not intended, I'll ignore instead of getting irritated.

 

[zenith-nadir]

OK >>>> just as I'm typing this, Israel Radio has confirmed: Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Friday evening ordered the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for a large-scale ground offensive in the Gaza Strip but told commanders they need to wait in readiness for the government to give the final order so the operation would get underway.

It's the same old game. This time the emperor has no clothes. It's Arafat's legacy - Fatah, Black September, Tanzim and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are responsible for thousands of bombings, hijackings, assassinations and other attacks. Way back to 1965 when Fatah failed in its first attempted attack on Israel.

I hope folks realize that the reason we are so vocal is because you have to literally bash people over the head to get through the thick fog of propoganda that the Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas "defence" of the Palestinian people is not, and never was, about Palestinian Nationalism.

All that terror and suicide bombing in Israel is no different than terror and suicide bombing in Madrid or London...except it was conveniently on the other side of the world.

 

[zenith-nadir]

U.N. condemns Mideast violence

UNITED NATIONS, July 15 (UPI) -- The United Nations has condemned Israeli killings of Palestinian militants in Gaza and a rocket attack killing one Israeli woman and wounding several others.

"Without prejudice to Israel's right to legitimate and proportional self-defense, the U.N. Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, reiterates the United Nations' consistent and vocal opposition to extra-judicial killings," said one of two statements released Friday by envoy Alvaro de Soto's office in Jerusalem.

The restraint that Israel has observed, by and large, in the last few months, has been noted. It is to be hoped that, at a time when the Palestinian Authority is clearly moving to enforce law and order, Israel, and all other parties, will refrain from activities that might contribute to a further escalation of the situation," it added.

In a nutshell:

"The Palestinians are doing a great job enforcing law and order therefore we condemn Israel killing Hamas terrorists on their way to launch mortars and rockets into Israel".



Anyone other than me see how phucked up the worlds moral compass is???? Notice how the U.N. Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process singles out Israel and refers to Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas as "other parties". He won't even name the terrorists let alone blame them for the violence.

I guess you have to be an Israeli to realize how statements like these - BY THE U.N. - add to the propoganda that Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas are "the Palestinians".

 

[zenith-nadir]

Here's more propoganda.

Days of escalating Mideast violence risk splintering truce - July 16, 2005

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Heavy violence risked splintering a teetering truce as Israeli helicopters again hit Palestinian targets and Islamist militants fired retaliatory rockets, a month before Israel's pullout from Gaza.

THE TERRORISTS ROCKETS WERE NOT RETALITORY. Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas ARE NOT "PALESTINIAN" TARGETS. Between the UN and AFP altering reality and singling out Israel as the aggressor it's no wonder why people think the way they do about the conflict.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Here's more propoganda:

Israel arrests 30 Palestinians - CNN - Saturday, July 16, 2005

A Palestinian official on Saturday condemned Israeli airstrikes the arrests as an attempt to cause division among the Palestinian people, and urged them to remain united.

So if that is the truth then Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas represent the Palestinian people and as such by suicide bombing Israel and attacking it with rockets and mortars have declared war. But wait there's more exciting propoganda in the same article:

"We all have a cause," said Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmad Qorei, saying the Israeli actions were an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by inciting violence against Israelis despite the Palestinian Authority's efforts to promote calm in the region.

Emphasis all mine.

Israel's response to Palestinian suicide bombing and daily rocket and mortar attacks is "an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups". Any of this sinking in? Do you see how DISTORTED the truth is with all this PROPOGANDA flying around?

The UN: "a time when the Palestinian Authority is clearly moving to enforce law and order, Israel, and all other parties, will refrain from activities that might contribute to a further escalation of the situation".

THE TURNSPEAK: "Israel should refrain from activities that might contribute to a further escalation".

THE TRUTH: The escalation is because of Palestinian terrorists suicide bombing and launching mortars into Israel.

AFP: "Heavy violence risked splintering a teetering truce as Israeli helicopters again hit Palestinian targets and Islamist militants fired retaliatory rockets".

THE TURNSPEAK: "Israeli helicopters again hit Palestinian targets and Islamist militants fired retaliatory rockets"

THE TRUTH: "Israeli helicopters hit terrorist targets in Palestinian areas AFTER Palestinian terrorists fired rockets and mortars into Israel.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmad Qorei: "Israeli actions were an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by inciting violence against Israelis despite the Palestinian Authority's efforts to promote calm in the region".

THE TURNSPEAK: "Israeli actions were an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by inciting violence against Israelis"

THE TRUTH: "The Palestinian terrorists actions were an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by inciting violence against Israelis"


It's all smoke and mirrors, lies and propoganda.

 

[a_unique_person]

In a nutshell:

"The Palestinians are doing a great job enforcing law and order therefore we condemn Israel killing Hamas terrorists on their way to launch mortars and rockets into Israel".



Anyone other than me see how phucked up the worlds moral compass is???? Notice how the U.N. Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process singles out Israel and refers to Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas as "other parties". He won't even name the terrorists let alone blame them for the violence.

I guess you have to be an Israeli to realize how statements like these - BY THE U.N. - add to the propoganda that Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas are "the Palestinians".

You didn't bold the part where they condemn the rocket attack on the Israelis.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You didn't bold the part where they condemn the rocket attack on the Israelis.

I am pointing out the distortions and turnspeak when it comes to the middle east.

Here's a perfect example, in 30 days Israel would have ethnically cleansed all jews from Gaza for the Palestinians and yet - during a "ceasfire" - the rockets, mortars and suicde bombers continue. When Israel RESPONDS to the terrorism you get:

The UN: "a time when the Palestinian Authority is clearly moving to enforce law and order, Israel, and all other parties, will refrain from activities that might contribute to a further escalation of the situation".

AFP: "Heavy violence risked splintering a teetering truce as Israeli helicopters again hit Palestinian targets and Islamist militants fired retaliatory rockets".

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmad Qorei: "Israeli actions were an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by inciting violence against Israelis despite the Palestinian Authority's efforts to promote calm in the region".

None of that is TRUE a_u_p. The Palestinian Authority IS NOT moving to enforce law and order, their first try was on Thursday night and they got their butts kicked by Hamas. Islamist militants DID NOT fired retaliatory rockets, they fired first - during a ceasefire!!! - and sent suicide bombers into Israel. Israeli actions ARE NOT an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups, they are the RESPONSE to attacks by Palestinian militant groups.

Now ask yourself a_u_p do you not see now why you take the position that you do? Do you not see that what you read and hear is a complete distortion of the truth and turnspeak? Are you starting to realize now that perhaps, just perhaps you may be mistaken about a few things and that I am not lying to you?

 

[a_unique_person]

None of that is TRUE a_u_p. The Palestinian Authority IS NOT moving to enforce law and order, their first try was on Thursday night and they got their butts kicked by Hamas.

You contradict yourself there.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You contradict yourself there.

Please, answer the question.

Do you not see that the information you read is a DISTORTION of the truth? Yes or no?

 

[a_unique_person]

Please, answer the question.

Do you not see that the information you read is a DISTORTION of the truth? Yes or no?

You said, the PA tried to stop Hamas firing rockets, Hamas fought them off.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You said, the PA tried to stop Hamas firing rockets, Hamas fought them off.

Please, answer the question.

Do you not see that the information you read is a DISTORTION of the truth? Yes or no?

 

[webfusion]

turnspeak is rampant

It is irrelevent if the PA officially condemns the terror.
It is irrelevent if the UN officially condemns the terror.
It is irrelevent if the US officially condemns the terror.
It is irrelevent if the EU officially condemns the terror.

What is relevent is that Israel officially acts to stop it.
If it takes a total war that eviscerates the Gaza Strip and leaves it devoid totally of human habitation, and desolate for generations, then so be it. At this point, I just don't care, let the place stand as a vast sand-dune "memorial" to the world that Israel will not be a target of terrorism.

The Palestinians? They have lost a few wars already, probably it's needed for them to lose another, so it sinks in that Israel is not theirs.

===========================

BTW, Z-N is absolutely correct, I started a thread which says "War Declared on HAMAS, IJ" but as was pointed out above quite clearly, Israel has not declared war, it was in fact the terrorists that were the ones opening the war by their brutal and murderous acts and Israel is just going ahead and engaging them to put an end to it.

No military solution?
We'll see... it certainly is something that is being attempted, and the Israeli Army & Air Force are just the guys to handle it!

 

[a_unique_person]

But what was the process that created the settlements in the first place, that they need to be defended, and eventually evacuated.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/600594.html

But you came at the urging of the government of Israel, a government whose "greatest" security people, headed by Ariel Sharon, anticipated the problems in the Gaza Strip and conceived the "five fingers" plan to split the area by means of Jewish settlements. Because a Jewish settlement is always, always the border, the last furrow.




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And you/we took up the challenge, the challenge of the fingers. You transformed an accursed land into an astonishing agricultural empire, with special crops that are exported to every corner of the world.

I remember well how we came to visit you in Gush Katif 22 years ago, when I wanted to leave Sde Eliahu. We met a young family with two infants, a tiny home and extensive hothouses in the glowing sand. We too wondered how to do it. How do you extract plants and saplings from such a vast nothingness?

But you, with infinite patience, with hard and demanding work, by trial and error, looked for the right and best crop - the one that would be suitable for our special climate and soil conditions. At the same time you enlarged your family, expanded the house and, along with all of us, turned Gush Katif into a fertile garden. Today, suddenly, ill winds are blowing, winds of destruction and evil, winds that are stronger than an east wind - winds that threaten to dry up this project, to uproot what lives and grows.

And the worst of it is that behind these winds is the same person who sent you, us. The same person who morning and evening explained to us how vital it was to settle the barren land, the accursed land; the same person whose feverish brain conceived the "five fingers" plan, the same one who already cut off one finger - Yamit - and sent its uprooted people to Gush Katif, too.

The aim was to divide the Palestinian land, and break up the Palestinian people. That worked of course, but the converse is that the settlements are exposed and vulnerable themselves. It was always a lose/lose situation.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: turnspeak is rampant

It is irrelevent if the PA officially condemns the terror.
It is irrelevent if the UN officially condemns the terror.
It is irrelevent if the US officially condemns the terror.
It is irrelevent if the EU officially condemns the terror.

What is relevent is that Israel officially acts to stop it,

Agreed. The Palestinians, Americans, Europeans and everyone else for that matter will not stop the terror. That leaves Israel to stop the Palestinian terror.

If it takes a total war that eviscerates the Gaza Strip and leaves it devoid totally of human habitation, and desolate for generations, then so be it. At this point, I just don't care, let the place stand as a vast sand-dune "memorial" to the world that Israel will not be a target of terrorism.

And that is the part that really gets my goat. The Palestinian terrorists can attack israel and it's not an act of war. If Israel attacks the Palestinian terrorists then it is an "attack on the Palestinian people".

So using that logic does it not follow that a Palestinian attack on Israel is an attack by the Palestinian people? Of course it's not...because that would mean a Palestinian delclaration of war which would give Israel every right to bomb Gaza into dust. Welcome to the Palestinian game folks.

But what was the process that created the settlements in the first place, that they need to be defended, and eventually evacuated....The aim was to divide the Palestinian land, and break up the Palestinian people. That worked of course, but the converse is that the settlements are exposed and vulnerable themselves. It was always a lose/lose situation.

Ok. At this point I asked you a direct question three times. I even went so far to lay a foundation down for my question regarding how the middle east conflict is distorted in the media.

Three times asked, and three times you ducked a_u_p. You response is to re-hash settlement B.S. I have now officially written you off. You have an agenda that outwieghs your skeptical abilities. This is my last response to you.

 

[webfusion]

a_u_p misses the point

the PA tried to stop Hamas firing rockets, Hamas fought them off.

You are trying to say that HAMAS gunslingers (Iz-A-Din- Al Qassem to be precise) are stronger than the PA security forces? What is more likely is that the PA forces are not really motivated to stop their brothers and cousins and friends, who they have to go home and sit around & eat with after their 8-hour shift as 'PA cops' is over! !

In a press conference held by Hamas Friday morning, the group blamed the PA for complying with Israel's instructions, and said "the men of Iz al-Din al-Qassam (Hamas' military wing) will not give in to attempts to stop rocket fire."

No ◊◊◊◊.

In any case, the PA is unable to act effectively because they don't want to upset the so-called Palestinian Unity, which is actually dedicated to the conflict with Israel. It is embodied in their entire outlook, from their Palestinian National Charter all the way up to their support by Arab states such as Syria, Iran, Libya, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Look at the statements coming from Palestinian 'leaders' who are outside of the occupied territories -- from Damascus, from Teheran, from Beirut, even from the USA.

Only the Egyptians, in their infinite wisdom (they lost all of Sinai while attempting to destroy Israel, if you may recall) have decided to intervene to help the Palestinians realize that negotiations and self-control at this stage will lead to far greater rewards (even a State).

Yep, the Egyptians certainly know whereof they speak.
They know firsthand that Israel is not a paper tiger.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: a_u_p misses the point

What is more likely is that the PA forces are not really motivated to stop their brothers and cousins and friends, who they have to go home and sit around & eat with after their 8-hour shift as 'PA cops' is over! !

Palestinian Gunmen Rampage in Ramallah - Friday, April 1, 2005

JERUSALEM, March 31 -- Palestinian gunmen went on a rampage in the West Bank city of Ramallah on Wednesday night and Thursday morning, shooting at the office of the Palestinian Authority's president and setting several restaurants and shops on fire, security officials said.

The identities of the gunmen were unclear, but several reports indicated they were Palestinian security officers and militants affiliated with the Fatah political movement -- the party of the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas -- who had been expelled from his headquarters.

Palestinians sign peace pledge in exchange for jobs - April 27, 2005

RAMALLAH -- Hundreds of Palestinian gunmen wanted by Israel have pledged in writing in recent weeks to refrain from violence in exchange for a job either in the Palestinian security forces or in one of the Palestinian Authority's government ministries, according to Palestinian officials.

Emphasis all mine. Terrorists stopping terrorists? PLAEEEEZE


This is the part that really gets me, Deep down inside I know there are better and brighter Palestinians to represent the Palestinians than gunmen, suicide bombers, terrorists and militants.


[edited to add]

Hamas vows revenge on Israel as violence surges - July 16, 2005

GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas vowed revenge against
Israel on Saturday after seven of its gunmen were killed in an upsurge of violence that has brought a truce close to collapse a month before Israel's planned pullout from the Gaza Strip.

"When Palestinian blood is shed, there is no protection for Zionist blood," said Hamas leader Ismail Haniyah.

Palestinian officials said the Israeli missile strikes were unjustified and would upset a calm declared by militant groups in February.

TURNSPEAK 101, "Palestinian officials said the Israeli missile strikes were unjustified and would upset a calm declared by militant groups in February".

Here's 18 pages of links, events and terror attacks that PROVES there has been NO "calm" by Palestinian militant groups JREFers.

Yet the CLAIM is still made by Palestinian officials and is REPORTED as fact. That is what I was trying to show a_u_p and he choked on it and went to "settlement argument #254"

 

[webfusion]

a_u_p asks...

Z-N , you might want to reconsider placing a_u_p onto 'ignore' so glibly. He is (IMO) properly and skeptically trying to delve into the underlying (accent on the "lying') situations and often brings up interesting insights into how the depictions of Israel are perceived out there in the world.

(Demon can stay on my ignore list with EJ Armstrong, yes, but not A_U_P)

Anyway, a_u_p asks:
"But what was the process that created the settlements in the first place"

The real answer to that can be found HERE:
http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1600

HERE:
http://www.palestine-info.net/english/publish/printer_9.shtml
>>> NOTE: when reading these texts, remember the source, which might be (!) an un-credited palestinian writer and a slant is apparent, despite a reasonable attempt to be factually accurate and objective <<<

I especially found this last paragraph in the above link answers a_u_p's question perfectly:

• Finally, when the seventh Zionist Conference was held in Basl in 1905, Herzl was already dead, and the conflict among his followers was severe, especially between those who adopted Uganda and those who favoured Palestine. David Wilfson was subsequently elected as president of the Zionist movement, thereby defeating and causing to retreat those who favoured Uganda, thereafter forming an organization called the International Regional Organization. The most important deeds accomplished at this conference were the amendment of the Jewish Insurance Fund to give priority to the housing projects in Palestine, Syria, Asian Turkey, the Sinai Peninsula and Cyprus.

and HERE:
http://www.zajel.org/article_view.asp?newsID=2278&cat=15

• The first purchase from an Arab owner was made in 1910 from the Sursuq family of Beirut, one of the largest of the absentee owners of land in Palestine. The Sursuqs had earlier offered to sell 9,415 dunums near Kafr Fulah in the Marj Ibn 'Amir; of these 3,524 were acquired by the JNF in 1910, the remainder after World War I.
  From 1910 until the outbreak of World War I, the JNF acquired an additional 1,010 dunums from Arab absentee landowners.

So, as we see, the 'settlements' are not the result of the 1967 Six-Day War, the 'settlements' are a result of jewish interests in rebuilding their historical homeland, dating from the 1880's.

And that, in the final analysis, is why Islamic terrorists wish to continue their heinous acts and their ultimate goal is to roll back the clock, not to the level of Jewish "occupation" of the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines (the Green Lines), but to the level of Jewish occupation prior to 1889 ~~~~

Let's be honest about it, shall we?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: a_u_p asks...

Z-N , you might want to reconsider placing a_u_p onto 'ignore' so glibly.

Actually no one is on my ignore list. I just feel ducking a direct question three times and then answering it with some re-hashed settlement argument shows he has an agenda.

He is (IMO) properly and skeptically trying to delve into the underlying (accent on the "lying') situations and often brings up interesting insights into how the depictions of Israel are perceived out there in the world.

My point exactly. Here we have a "real time" blow by blow of what's going on and anyone with half a brain can see now how distorted the reporting is and how thick and misleading the propoganda is.

"Palestinian officials said the Israeli missile strikes were unjustified and would upset a calm declared by militant groups in February."

"a time when the Palestinian Authority is clearly moving to enforce law and order, Israel, and all other parties, will refrain from activities that might contribute to a further escalation of the situation".

"Heavy violence risked splintering a teetering truce as Israeli helicopters again hit Palestinian targets and Islamist militants fired retaliatory rockets."

"Israeli actions were an attempt to pit the Palestinian Authority against militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by inciting violence against Israelis despite the Palestinian Authority's efforts to promote calm in the region".

That is just one short morning of the news medias' turnspeak. CNN, AFP, Associated Press, Reuters....no wonder people are confused as to who is the real aggressor in this conflict.

If I turn even one JREFer around by exposing this blatant bias in the media I will be happy.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: a_u_p asks...

Actually no one is on my ignore list. I just feel ducking a direct question three times and then answering it with some re-hashed settlement argument shows he has an agenda.

I don't know that he actually has an "agenda" as such. It's just that he thinks nothing is ever "understood" and that we should always strive for "understanding" to resolve any conflict, rather than act.

A sort of pacifism I suppose, which is OK as long as I don't rely on him to defend me, but what I don't see is copies of his posts on Hamas websites advocating the same (and being heard).

 

[Mycroft]

Here's more propoganda.
THE TERRORISTS ROCKETS WERE NOT RETALITORY. Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas ARE NOT "PALESTINIAN" TARGETS. Between the UN and AFP altering reality and singling out Israel as the aggressor it's no wonder why people think the way they do about the conflict.

This is why I started this thread. I knew that when the cease-fire broke down that the news agencies would blame Israel for it even though there were almost daily attacks from the Palestinian-Arabs.

So for at least those who follow these issues on this board, there is no excuse for revisionism. We know how this cease-fire went, who honored it and who did not.