With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Mycroft]

This is where we differ as I don't believe the PA has the ability to dismantle these groups. What I think they have the ability to do is to totally, utterly and sincerely disown them, to make it clear that the terror groups do not represent legitimate Palestinian objectives and so on. Of course I do think they can use their own internal police etc. to hunt down the terror groups, but that is very different then being able to just “dismantle” the groups.

What they're trying to do is incorporate them into the PA security aparatus by giving them jobs as armed security officers.

 

[webfusion]

you got THAT right, a_u_p!

It's not as if anyone else other than a few mad bastards like us even perseveres in these threads. Most people seem far too sensible.

I agree. We aren't here to solve anything, we aren't adding or subtracting in the grand scheme of things. It's just a few blokes throwing around ideas, trying to see if our mutual skepticism of the "accepted facts" might produce some interesting discussion and debate.

Darat is showing how exactly that method can be utilized, both in capacity as admin. and in capacity as a member with opinions and thoughts on this weighty and frustrating matter.

=====================

That said, my "list" of things which Israel is suggesting are from various news reports over the last few months. I really don't feel the need to offer links to each one, but I edited the post and put in some of the recent articles which describe the Israeli gestures and offers.
As an Israeli, I have personal knowledge of the conditions in my home country, vis-a-vis the Palestinians. It must be recalled that Israel ALREADY has proper dealings on a political and economic level with over a million of its' own citizens who are Palestinian-Arabs, and beyond that, Israel has proper dealings with an entire nation to the East (which is run by-and-large by Palestinians). Somehow, the Palestinian terrorists need to be eliminated and the Palestinians themselves can move ahead and prosper and have good relations with Israel who will, obviously, see that the "New Palestine" state is developed.

Israel is not about 'stealing' anything. Israel is about making a good life for the inhabitants of a harsh desert land. The pity of the Palestinian debacle is their attitude has been all along that they refuse to share it with Jews.
The Jews attitude all along has been -- "let's join and build together" (while not perfect, it has been observed in the main).

Abbas? He has his work cut out for himself.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/591219.html

• As far as is known, Fatah spokesmen did not rush to condemn the act publicly either, or to distinguish between opposition to the occupation and planning an act of murder. One Gazan journalist, who was asked why Palestinian journalists did not go out to gather more information, said the reason is fear. In the existing security chaos, he said, there is no guarantee that no harm will come to a journalist who exposes the anti-patriotism of a certain group of armed men, or that no attack might be directed at any Palestinian news organization which publishes a direct condemnation of some immoral and stupid plan of action.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Darat
Perhaps we use the word “dismantle” in a different way? What I thought you meant was that the PA could just say “stop”. If by dismantling you mean ensuring no official funds are ever channelled to them, that the PA actively uses the resources it does have to track down the murderers and the leaders organising the groups, then ensures that they are treated as criminals under what ever is the appropriate legal system then I am in agreement that they have an obligation to do that.

I agree that is what they should do, but they do not do that.

Originally posted by Darat
However that has to be seen as an ongoing process and I think it is totally unreasonable to have as prerequisite for progress on other fronts that no further atrocity is committed by any Palestinian group.

I agree with this too, and that's a frequent straw-man I see. Whenever it's suggested that the PA act to curp terror, someone will pop up and say something like, "When will the New York City police department stop crime in New York?"

But the truth is the pattern of the PA has been to give a nod and a wink to terror. It's not that they can't stop all of it, it's that they don't try to stop any of it. Known terrorists would not be arrested. If there was a high profile attack and international pressure on the PA, they might arrest someone, but not charge them with a crime. Then weeks or months later, they would "escape" or there would be a "spontaneous demonstration" and a crowd of demonstrators would storm a police station and release them.

Unfortunately, it seems Abbas is continuing these practices. For example, Shin Bet, the Israeli police force, had intel on this woman suicide-bomber that was going to attack a hospital. They notified the PA, who did nothing. It was only luck that when she tried to detonate herself at the checkpoint that she didn't go off and nobody was hurt.

Originally posted by Darat
Even in a police state terror groups can operate. What is important is that there are no ties between the PA and any terror organisation, that there is a totally denouncement of violence against anyone, not just Israel.

As I said earlier, right now the PA is trying to incorporate these terror organizations into their security forces. These terror organizations are what passes for political parties in the territories.

Originally posted by Darat
(I suspect that like other terror organisations they use violence against their “own people” to keep the communities that harbour them under control.)

They are very oppressive to their own people too.

 

[Darat]

What they're trying to do is incorporate them into the PA security aparatus by giving them jobs as armed security officers.

If they then act in a moral and legal manner then that may be the price that has to be paid. It's sickening to think - lets not mince words - killers can be given this type of "respectability" by accepting them into a legitimate organisation.

But no matter how distasteful it is it may be the only way to bring them under control and be a step in dismantling terrorist groups.

 

[zenith-nadir]

A lot of the time I believe they wrap themselves in the colours of their religion to gain more popular support, a bit like the IRA cloaked themselves in the colours of “patriotism”. However like the IRA that is just a veneer to cover what they are, brutal, sadistic killers. Not to say there aren’t idealist and yes the ones they persuade to become martyrs believe in the religious rubbish however the leaders – I doubt it.

Most people draw parallels between the IRA and Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa/PLFP/etc. They are apples and oranges. The difference is the IRA wasn't seeking to wipe the UK clean of Brits and destroy England, they just wanted the Brits out of their business. The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas clearly states that it is a muslim duty to destroy Israel.

The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

But that can change, for instance the ANC was a terror organisation (no matter whether what they were fighting for justified their actions or not), it made the transition to a true political party albeit with some issues along the way. The same can be partly said for the emergence of the political wing of the IRA, Sinn Fein. It is very difficult and it will have atrocious failures as it reforms but reform is not impossible.

Reform is possible, unless said terror organization is fundamentalist and on a jihad, then they will only reform when "god" tells them to.

That is the crucial point that has to be tackled and constantly addressed by both sides, the talks with each sides leaders are good and should continue but if there is significant support for the terror from the population (of either side) then it will continue.

Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR):

• Public Opinion Poll # 1 - 27-29 July 2000 - Today, 52% support armed attacks against Israelis while 43% oppose them
• Public Opinion Poll # 2 - 5-9 July 2001 - 58% support armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel and 39% oppose them / 92% support armed confrontations against the Israeli army in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip
• Public Opinion Poll # 5 - 18-21 August 2002 - 52% support, and 46% oppose, bombing attacks against civilians inside Israel, but more that 90% support armed attacks against soldiers and settlers
• Public Opinion Poll # 8 - 19-22 June 2003 - 65% believe that armed confrontations have so far helped achieve Palestinian national rights in ways that negotiations could not / 58% support Hamas' refusal to accept a ceasefire
• Public Opinion Poll # 11 - 14-17 March 2004 - Wide support for armed attacks: 87% support attacks against Israeli soldiers, 86% support attacks against settlers, and 53% support attacks against Israeli civilians.
• Public Opinion Poll # 16 - 9-11 June 2005 - 66% believe that armed confrontations have helped Palestinians achieve national rights / 60% opposes collection of arms from Palestinian factions and armed groups.

There is significant support for the terror from the population Darat.

However history teaches us that there is no “military” solution to these problems (apart from attempts at genocide) so ways have to be found. I had so much hoped when Arafat died we would have seen so much more change.

Arafat's legacy was 40 years in the making. It will take a generation or two to remove it from Palestinian society.

Perhaps we use the word “dismantle” in a different way? What I thought you meant was that the PA could just say “stop”. If by dismantling you mean ensuring no official funds are ever channelled to them, that the PA actively uses the resources it does have to track down the murderers and the leaders organising the groups, then ensures that they are treated as criminals under what ever is the appropriate legal system then I am in agreement that they have an obligation to do that. However that has to be seen as an ongoing process and I think it is totally unreasonable to have as prerequisite for progress on other fronts that no further atrocity is committed by any Palestinian group.

There can be no progress if the islamist groups continue to fire on Israel. It's really that simple. You can't have Abbas negotiating peace as Palestinians are launching mortar and rockets at Israelis for his words have little value at that point.

Even in a police state terror groups can operate. What is important is that there are no ties between the PA and any terror organisation, that there is a totally denouncement of violence against anyone, not just Israel. (I suspect that like other terror organisations they use violence against their “own people” to keep the communities that harbour them under control.)

Let me quote from a letter from Yasser Arafat to Prime Minister Rabin: September 9, 1993 :

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

None of that ever happened, and we've heard it promised a thousand times over and over again. Words aren't good enough anymore Darat, only actions such an immediate and unconditional ceasefire and an end of armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis everywhere.

I do not know enough to agree or disagree with your statement in detail. My view is that there are many ties between at least areas of the PA and some of the groups, however I did not think that they truly were one and the same.

You know how the news always says; "the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades a militant group loosely affiliated with Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement", or "the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades the military offshoot of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement" or "the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades an armed offshoot of Arafat's Fatah movement" or "the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades an armed wing of Arafat's Fatah movement"...there is a reason for that.

 

[zenith-nadir]

It's sickening to think - lets not mince words - killers can be given this type of "respectability" by accepting them into a legitimate organisation.

Palestinians Proceed on Disarmament Deal - June 23, 2005

Associated Press - NABLUS, West Bank - Palestinian officials said Thursday they reached a tentative agreement to absorb about 700 gunmen in this West Bank city into the Palestinian security services....Nasser Juma, Nablus spokesman for the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent group loosely linked with Abbas' Fatah movement, confirmed a deal was in place.

The program of offering government jobs to militants in exchange for giving up their weapons has been a centerpiece of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' efforts to impose law and order in the chaotic West Bank and Gaza Strip...Israel has said the tactic is ineffective and has demanded tougher action against the militants, and even Palestinian officials conceded the weapons collection would not take place anytime soon.

That is like the Taliban making members of Al Queda Afghani police. ..

 

[Elind]

Historically many political parties and organisations have been terrorist groups and then evolved into legitimate political parties and even governments.

Of course that can be claimed by and of almost anyone. People and cultures do change, sometimes for the better, but I do believe that they are not all the same just because someone labels them so and it is not an argument that should be used to excuse any given act of the day.

The American revolutionaries would have been considered such by the British. Some of the original Zionists certainly were, in some of their acts, and of course some think all American soldiers are today.

I think the point is what the fundamental principles of any group are, and there are differences.

We don't need to rehash the countless arguments made here, but in all their time of existence the PA has never lived up to its agreed obligations to change, and simply letting its former members start calling themselves by other names to continue the earlier policies is hardly any evidence of evolution to legitimacy and civil government.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It was a colonialist empire, like many, the inhabitants were glad to see the last of it, and gave it a good boot up the khyber on the way out.

Empire and "colonialist" are not the same thing.

If the natives were glad to see them go or not, 600 years of rule is not "occupation."

Originally posted by a_unique_person
A forest in that area was notable for it's rarity. A spring or something must have been there. The settlement was one more that was illegally built.

Pure conjecture substituted for facts. You are not a geologist, and even if you were you would not be able to tell the existence of an aquifer from a mere photograph.

Also, you have not determined the settlement was illegal.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I am the guy who looked at year four, as well. We have been over this numerous times. I'm not saying it was good it took three years, I am saying that at least after three years, there was a real reduction.

It didn't take three years, for three years Arafat encouraged terror instead of trying to stop it. When he did act, it was in half-measures that could be (and were) undone later. This has been pointed out to you many times.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I'm hardly under the delusion I am 'helping' anyone here. This is a debate on the issue. Just as I am not 'helping' the Palestinians, I don't believe I am 'harming' the Israelis.

If you could demonstrate to me that my debating here was causing people to die or suffer, I would reconsider participating in the debates.

These events don't happen in a vaccuum. Both sides are aware of opinions internationally. When you continue to make excuses for Palestinian-Arab terror, you send a message that it's okay, that there is no reason to stop the killing. When you object to my pointing out that Palestinian-Arabs are not honoring the cease fire, you add yourself to the pressure on Israel to ignore relevent evidence in their decision making.

Right now the EU is establishing diplomatic ties with Hamas. Why? It's a terrorist organization, they're the ones who unappoligetically state their goal is genocide. Yet the EU establishes diplomatic ties with them because enough of their citizens feel as you do, that the conflict is all Israels fault and that Palestinian-Arab violence should always be excused.

You may not shape policy, but we live in democracies and our opinions do have influence.

Just like JREF doesn't stop charlatans from bilking people with false promises, but the existence of a skeptical community does make it just a little harder for them.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I was going to ask him, where he got that list from. I read about the airport, and was encouraged that maybe some real conecssions were going to be made. I also recall, however, that apparent 'concessions' in the past have not turned out to be what they first looked to be, or have failed to materialise, or the exact opposite happened.

Everything on that list was in the news, much of it linked in this thread.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The truth is hardly 'clear'. If it was, this shambles would have been resolved long ago.

Truth and solutions are different things. Knowing the truth doesn't mean you know how to fix things. Saying the truth isn't "clear" doesn't excuse revisionism.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
My 'crusade' is nothing more than I have already characterised it. It's not as if anyone else other than a few mad bastards like us even perseveres in these threads. Most people seem far too sensible. If you want to see a 'crusade' in action, try LGF.

When are you going to get tired of baiting me with LGF? You've been banging that drum for almost a year now, what's the point?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Israeli teenager killed in West Bank

TEL AVIV, Israel, June 24 (UPI) -- An Israeli teenager was killed and four were wounded in a drive-by shooting south of the West Bank city of Hebron, the army and settlers reported.

The four were waiting for a ride, Friday afternoon, near the settlement of Beit Hagai when a car carrying armed Palestinians drove by and opened fire, an army spokesman said.

A Fatah group reportedly claimed responsibility for the attack.

PA police, Fatah militants fight in Jenin

TEL AVIV, Israel, June 24 (UPI) -- Palestinian police and members of Fatah's al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades Friday traded fire in the northern West Bank of Jenin, Haaretz reported.

The newspaper's Web site said dozens of police arrived in jeeps in northern Jenin the day after an al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade militant shot and killed a police officer in the police station.

 

[Mycroft]

Dang, you beat me to it, but I can add this:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050624/wl_nm/mideast_jihad_dc

Jihad chiefs avoid rally after Israel death threat

BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Islamic Jihad activists marched on Friday, vowing not to be cowed by Israeli death threats, but group leaders wary of assassination by airborne missiles avoided the rally.

Israel said on Wednesday it had resumed a "targeted killing" policy against leaders of Islamic Jihad, underlining how far a ceasefire with the Palestinians has frayed since a February summit that revived hopes of Middle East peace.

I read this and the tune "Brave, brave Sir Robin" from Monty Python goes through my head.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Something to ponder is if Palestinians cannot make peace with each other how the hell are they going to make peace with countries around them?

Once agin note how zenith-nadir operates. He uses no modifiers when he uses the word Palestinians. AS he has been told about this many times it is clear that he intends to refer to every Palestinian.

Is this argument meant to apply equally to all groups? If so, perhaps you might look at how it works with, for example, certain settlers in Gaza.

Perhaps you don't actually mean your arguments should be applied consistently to every party or perhaps you don't realise what you are saying or perhaps you are not actually here to do anything other than abuse all Palestinians?

Given your history on this site it is clear the latter is your real intention. It's always interesting to watch the clamour at work.

Edited by Darat: 

As per my announcement. This post is inappropriate as it is attempting to personalise the discussion rather then discuses the various issues raised.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
I read this and the tune "Brave, brave Sir Robin" from Monty Python goes through my head.

Are you going to let us know what this means?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
What they're trying to do is incorporate them into the PA security aparatus by giving them jobs as armed security officers.

This is an interesting point. How would this action compare with say Irgun or Stern gang members or the USA taking germans who were involved in the deaths of thousands of slave labourers into the US military and space programmes?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Once agin note how zenith-nadir operates. He uses no modifiers when he uses the word Palestinians. AS he has been told about this many times it is clear that he intends to refer to every Palestinian.

Sort of like how you didn't use any modifiers when you claimed that Israelis murder schoolchildren (and then played word games when asked to support your assertion)?

Edited by Darat: 

As per my announcement. This post is inappropriate as it is attempting to personalise the discussion rather then discuses the various issues raised.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Art Vandela
Sort of like how you didn't use any modifiers when you claimed that Israelis murder schoolchildren (and then played word games when asked to support your assertion)?

One significant difference here is that I supplied a quote to back up my claim. You provided none.

In regard to evidence concerning the behaviour of the IDF from
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/4235.htm
'Last month, another 10-year-old girl was killed by IDF gunfire while sitting at her desk at the same school.'
Also from http://education.guardian.co.uk/schoolsworldwide/story/0,14062,1306747,00.html.

'Raghda Alassar's classmates did not hear the Israeli bullet that tore into the nine-year-old's brain as she wrote an English test. But as a pool of blood spread across her desk and spilled on to the floor, a wall of screams rose from the classroom of the UN elementary school for girls in Khan Yunis.
At that point Raghda was still crying for help. By the time she was hauled into the trauma room of a neighbouring hospital she was silent.

For five crucial days the army blocked Raghda's transfer to an Israeli hospital with the facilities to offer a glimmer of hope. An infection set in.

On Tuesday doctors told her father, Adnad, that she was brain dead.

"The bullet entered under her eye and went out the back of her head," Mr Alassar said.

"It took them a long time to stop the bleeding, and her heart stopped and they gave her shocks. From that moment she was like a dead body, although she wasn't dead."

"I find it so difficult to believe what happened to my daughter. She was at school, just carrying her notebook, not a gun. What is my daughter - nine years old - guilty of that she has to be shot? It's state terror against the whole population."

In recent weeks the Israelis have again been preoccupied with terrorism, from the murder of 16 people in the Beersheba bus bombings to the slaughter of Russian schoolchildren in Beslan, which received blanket coverage.

During the six months of relative peace for Israelis, until the Beersheba bombings, the army killed more than 400 Palestinians. Most were fighters, but they also included about 40 children under 15. Palestinians say this also is a form of terror.'

It seems that the killing of children at school by 'IDF gunfire' is widely accepted.

But both sides have carried out killings without regard to the safety of children. I recommend the report discussed in http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/mde020052002 where it states amongst other things that 'Children are increasingly bearing the brunt of this conflict. Both the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) and Palestinian armed groups show an utter disregard for the lives of children and other civilians, Amnesty International said today. '

 

[Art Vandelay]

One significant difference here is that I supplied a quote to back up my claim. You provided none.

Ah, more dodging the issue. You accused Zenith-Nader of overgeneralizing, and when I pointed out your hypocrisy, you try to switch the subject to quotes, and dishonestly implied that I have made similar claims. Tell me, do you have a quote showing that every single Israeli is a murderer? Yes, or no? If not, you do NOT have a quote to back up your claim.

You seem to have considerable difficulty distinguishing between "supplied a quote" and "supplied a quote to back up my claim". Your quote supports the claim that a girl was killed. You insist that you are not anti-semetic, yet you consider the fact that a girl was killed sufficient to condemn an entire nation. It's just an incredible coincidince that that country happens to be predominantly Jewish. Your quote doesn't even present any evidence that the girl was killed by Isrealis, just the claim.

What seem to not understand, no matter how much I try to explain, is that if you have a quote that shows that X is true, then you can present the quote, and say that you have supported X. If you think that Y follows from X, however, that does not justify presenting the quote as evidence of Y. If you do so, you are usurping the right of the reader to decide for themselves whether Y follows from X. Continuously presenting quotes for one claim, and saying that you have supported an entirely other claim, is just make people conclude that you an unreasonable ideologue unwilling to discuss issues reasonably.

 

[Elind]

Ah, more dodging the issue.

Art, Art, when are you going to stop abusing dead horses?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Art Vandelay
Ah, more dodging the issue. You accused Zenith-Nader of overgeneralizing, and when I pointed out your hypocrisy, you try to switch the subject to quotes, and dishonestly implied that I have made similar claims. Tell me, do you have a quote showing that every single Israeli is a murderer? Yes, or no? If not, you do NOT have a quote to back up your claim.

Au contraie. You are the one repeatedly dodging the issue.

Can I just point out yet again that I quoted the words of zentith-nadir that I took issue with. You made claims about me in your last post and again in this post but have failed spectacularly to provide a single word of mine to support your claims. Why should anyone believe you when you can't even be bothered to quote any words of mine?

You seem to have considerable difficulty distinguishing between "supplied a quote" and "supplied a quote to back up my claim". Your quote supports the claim that a girl was killed. You insist that you are not anti-semetic, yet you consider the fact that a girl was killed sufficient to condemn an entire nation. It's just an incredible coincidince that that country happens to be predominantly Jewish. Your quote doesn't even present any evidence that the girl was killed by Isrealis, just the claim.

Once again you make claims without a single quote of mine to support your claims. That seems to be a characteristic of your approach to the truth. Please provide one quote of mine where I condemned an entire nation. If it is so clear why not support your own claim with something simple like a fact? You don't seem to have read the links I supplied you with. Even Israelinsider stated that 'A 10-year-old Palestinian girl was shot in the chest by Israel Defense Forces gunfire...' Are you now calling them liars? If so, please provide support for this latest claim?

If I may say so you seem to be engeged again in a disreputable attempt to equate criticism of some actions of Ariel Sharon and the IDF with antisemitism. Do you not realise the contempt in which that sort of behaviour is held, particularly when Israeli is not equal to Jew as you seem to be trying to assert.

What seem to not understand, no matter how much I try to explain, is that if you have a quote that shows that X is true, then you can present the quote, and say that you have supported X. If you think that Y follows from X, however, that does not justify presenting the quote as evidence of Y. If you do so, you are usurping the right of the reader to decide for themselves whether Y follows from X. Continuously presenting quotes for one claim, and saying that you have supported an entirely other claim, is just make people conclude that you an unreasonable ideologue unwilling to discuss issues reasonably.

You do not seem to realise that when you make a claim you need to support it. Throughout your latest diatribe you have provided not one quote of mine to support your claims. I have repeatedly supported my claims with various types of evidence. You have failed even to provide one word of mine to support your own claims. When you make a claim it is your responsibility to support it. Can you now do so or do you intend to carry on making unsubstantiated claims? I have not usurped anyones right to do anything. if you don't agree with me, don't. It's really very simple.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

[]originally posted by Elind[/I]
Art, Art, when are you going to stop abusing dead horses?

Abuse as a substitute for rational argument noted.

Plus ca change.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Can I just point out yet again that I quoted the words of zentith-nadir that I took issue with. You made claims about me in your last post and again in this post but have failed spectacularly to provide a single word of mine to support your claims. Why should anyone believe you when you can't even be bothered to quote any words of mine?

This thread is fifteen pages long. You really expect me to go through it to find the quote, just so you can engage in more evasion? You referred to the murder of Palestinians as "their answer", where the context implied that "their" referred to Isrealis in general. Do you deny that? And do you promise to apologize if I find the quote?

Once again you make claims without a single quote of mine to support your claims. That seems to be a characteristic of your approach to the truth. Please provide one quote of mine where I condemned an entire nation.

And once again you engage in your behavior of repeating yourself. Considering how I have already mentioned that it's disrespectful, why do you continue?

You don't seem to have read the links I supplied you with.

You said that you were presenting quotes to back up your claim, not links. Silly me for taking you at your word.

If I may say so you seem to be engeged again in a disreputable attempt to equate criticism of some actions of Ariel Sharon and the IDF with antisemitism.

And you seem to be engaged in an attempt to equate any criticism of anti-Israeli propaganda with blind support for Isreali. I have simply presented the facts: you are incredibly biased against Israel, and Israel is predominantly Jewish. It might not be antisemitism that makes you think that the life of an IDF soldier is so worthless, but it certainly does raise suspicions. We aren't talking about a disagreement over some arbitrary ploicy decision here. What is at issue is Israelis' very right to defend themselves.

You have failed even to provide one word of mine to support your own claims.

I have never, in this entire thread, made a claim about you, and supported it with a quote of your posts?