With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Mycroft]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4605899.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4612697.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4605877.stm

Your first article is about events from three years ago.

Your second article is about Israeli police breaking up a Palestinian-Arab mob that had attacked Jews by throwing stones. Yes, I realize the BBC chose to start the article by placing the action on the Israeli side, but that's the BBC for you.

Your third article isn't even about anyone breaking the cease fire. If you want to complain more about Maale Adumim, you should either resurect that old thread or start a new one.

 

[zenith-nadir]

More ceasefire for Monday 20 June 2005;

IDF thwarts suicide bomb attack

(JP) - The IDF thwarted a suicide bomb attack Monday morning when soldiers caught a young woman, 20, wearing explosives strapped into her pants at the Erez crossing in the northern Gaza Strip, it was released for publication.

Apparently the young woman took advantage of the fact that she had been issued a permit by Israel allowing her entry into Israeli territory for humanitarian assistance, IDF officials said.

Soldiers were alerted to the fact that she was armed with explosives when she set off a screening device used to monitor people crossing through the checkpoint.

That is what the checkpoints are for a_u_p, that is why they were needed and that is why they remain.

Israeli dead in shooting attack near Hermesh in W. Bank

(JP) - An Israeli motorist was killed and another was lightly wounded when shots were fired at their car early Monday morning. The two were driving through Baka a-Sharkiya in the West Bank when gunmen opened fire.

According to initial findings, they parked a car in one of the alleyways that overlooks the road that leads through Baka a-Sharkiya and waited for an Israeli vehicle.

When the two settlers from Hermesh drove by, the gunmen opened fire, hitting the driver in the forehead. The teenager next to the driver succeeded in taking control of the car and reached within 100 meters of the checkpoint when the car caught fire, apparently due to a bullet that hit the gas tank.

Soldiers at the checkpoint succeeded in extricating the two settlers from the car. An IDF doctor on the scene pronounced the driver dead, and the youth, 16, was taken to the Hillel Yaffe hospital in Hadera.

Civilians ambushed and shot....how brave...that is why Israel had to build settler-only roads which some JREFers liken to South Africa's apartheid system...when in fact the roads are needed to save peoples lives from low-life Palestinian terrorists such as these shooters.

Your first article is about events from three years ago. Your second article is about Israeli police breaking up a Palestinian-Arab mob that had attacked Jews by throwing stones. Your third article isn't even about anyone breaking the cease fire.

Sometimes I wonder if Demon really knows what this is all about...

Yes it is tedious....but simple repetative tasks suit some people. Please wake us all up when you get tired of spamming....

Keep trying to marginalize the repeated violations of the ceasefire the Fool, since that is all you got.

 

[a_unique_person]

More ceasefire for Monday 20 June 2005; That is what the checkpoints are for a_u_p, that is why they were needed and that is why they remain.Civilians ambushed and shot....how brave...that is why Israel had to build settler-only roads which some JREFers liken to South Africa's apartheid system...when in fact the roads are needed to save peoples lives from low-life Palestinian terrorists such as these shooters.

Sometimes I wonder if Demon really knows what this is all about...

Keep trying to marginalize the repeated violations of the ceasefire the Fool, since that is all you got.

You ignore, of course, the checkpoints that have nothing to do with entry to Israel, but allow for movement within the Palestinian territories.

 

[a_unique_person]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/jerusalemparkplanimperilsarabhomes

JERUSALEM — In a valley beneath the towering walls of Jerusalem's Old City, a Palestinian named Hashem Jalajel sat in the shade of a fig tree, holding in his age-palsied hands a document that he feared could herald the destruction of his family home of generations' standing.


"I can't read it," the 76-year-old patriarch said apologetically, passing the Hebrew-language notice to one of his grandsons to read aloud. "But I've memorized everything it says."

Like dozens of other homeowners in this cave-pocked valley that is now a jammed and jostling Palestinian neighborhood, Jalajel has received an eviction order from the municipality of Jerusalem, designating one of the homes in his family compound as an illegal structure that is to be destroyed.

In all, 88 homes in the Silwan district of traditionally Arab East Jerusalem are marked for demolition to make way for what municipal authorities say will be an archeological park devoted to Jewish history and sites associated with the biblical King David.

The battle over this slice of Silwan is emblematic of a larger fight for control of Jerusalem, which lies at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both sides declare the city their capital, and neither is willing to renounce its claim.

......

Palestinians see districts such as Silwan as key political battlegrounds because they form a shrinking corridor of access between the West Bank and the Al Aqsa mosque, Islam's third-holiest shrine.

But Jewish groups and figures including American millionaire Irving Moskowitz, with the tacit backing of the Israeli government, have bankrolled the building of a string of fortified enclaves for Jewish families in East Jerusalem, seeking to challenge its mainly Palestinian character. About two dozen such miniature "settlements" dot the Silwan valley, with blue and white flags fluttering from roofs and watchtowers.

Much more than real estate is at stake. Historical narratives are colliding, with each side wanting its version to take precedence.

As is almost always the case when the two sides quarrel over a patch of ground, it is known to them by different names. Palestinians call Silwan's disputed part Al Bustan, or the Garden, evoking the fig and walnut groves for which it was once famous. Israeli authorities have been calling it the King's Valley, in tribute to the biblical David. The shepherd boy-turned-warrior who ruled around 1000 B.C. is revered for helping unify the kingdom of Israel with his conquest of Jerusalem.

"This area is the cradle from which the City of David sprang," said Uri Shetrit, Jerusalem's director of planning, urban design and architecture, who has spearheaded the demolition drive. "Historically, this valley was an open space, a green space full of archeological treasures, and I consider it my professional duty to protect them."

Shetrit described the area's inhabitants as "squatters," and some are migrants from the southern West Bank who are not legally allowed to live in Jerusalem. But others, including the Jalajel clan, trace their presence in Silwan to Ottoman times.

"I was born here, and my father and grandfather," said Hashem Jalajel, who was dressed in a long white Arab tunic. The family has gone to court to challenge the demolition order, and the case has been continued until September.

The relentless drive to disposess Arabs continues, by legal corruption and deception. No one has accused these Arabs of doing anything wrong, except that homes that have stood for years are suddenly found to be built with no permit.

That is what this whole issue has always been about, greater Israel and the problem of what to do with the Arabs who happen to live in that area.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You ignore, of course, the checkpoints that have nothing to do with entry to Israel, but allow for movement within the Palestinian territories.

You are correct a_u_p, there are checkpoints in gaza and the west bank and there are checkpoints at entry points into Israel. All of them are needed to stop weapons trafficking/smuggling and to weed out terrorists who dress like palestinian civilians as they are on their way to kill Israeli civilians.

Just like at the airport a_u_p, there are not checkpoints as you literally step on the plane, the checkpoints are strategically located to make safe areas prior to ever seeing the plane.

The point I am trying to illustrate is that this has been going on for decades, day after day, week after week, month after month. Even before the occupation. Ironically the reason the occupation exsists is becasue of this repeated behaviour by islamist terror groups and the Arab countries who support them.

 

[a_unique_person]

You are correct a_u_p, there are checkpoints in gaza and the west bank and there are checkpoints at entry points into Israel. All of them are needed to stop weapons trafficking/smuggling and to weed out terrorists who dress like palestinian civilians as they are on their way to kill Israeli civilians.

Just like at the airport a_u_p, there are not checkpoints as you literally step on the plane, the checkpoints are strategically located to make safe areas prior to ever seeing the plane.

The point I am trying to illustrate is that this has been going on for decades, day after day, week after week, month after month. Even before the occupation. Ironically the reason the occupation exsists is becasue of this repeated behaviour by islamist terror groups and the Arab countries who support them.

Interesting piece of circular logic there, the occupation has to continue because of the resistance to the occupation.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....The relentless drive to disposess Arabs continues, by legal corruption and deception. No one has accused these Arabs of doing anything wrong, except that homes that have stood for years are suddenly found to be built with no permit.That is what this whole issue has always been about, greater Israel and the problem of what to do with the Arabs who happen to live in that area.

I have yet to hear the Palestinian Authority claim they cannot maintain the ceasefire because of an eviction order from the municipality of Jerusalem. So tell me a_u_p, how does a story about an eviction order from the municipality of Jerusalem absolve the Palestinian Authority from it's responsibility for maintaining a ceasfire?

Additionally, is the Palestinian Authority obligated by their promises to maintain a ceasefire or are their promises meaningless and irrelevant because of eviction orders from the municipality of Jerusalem?

Interesting piece of circular logic there, the occupation has to continue because of the resistance to the occupation.

The only circular logic happening here is you blame terrorism that predates the occupation as resistance to the occupation. The 1967 war happened because of repeated terrorism against Israel and shelling/attacks by the surrounding Arab countries. The creation of the PLO predates the occupation and PLO attacks predate the occupation. To these groups any jew in Palestine is occupied Palestine a_u_p. I have documented that so many times and still you deny it.

There is the official Fatah logo courtesy of Fatah.net - Fatah is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority. That country behind the guns - and above the grenade - a_u_p is "all of Palestine", not just part of it. The beginning of the end of the occupation could start tomorrow if the attacks stopped once and for all.

Ever think you are debating for the bad guys, (terrorists), in this conflict a_u_p? Even for a brief second?

 

[Mycroft]

The relentless drive to disposess Arabs continues, by legal corruption and deception. No one has accused these Arabs of doing anything wrong, except that homes that have stood for years are suddenly found to be built with no permit.

That is what this whole issue has always been about, greater Israel and the problem of what to do with the Arabs who happen to live in that area.

So now are you the war-monger claiming the Palestinian-Arabs are justified in breaking the cease fire? Is that what you're claiming?

 

[Mycroft]

Interesting piece of circular logic there, the occupation has to continue because of the resistance to the occupation.

Here is another piece of circular logic: Palestinian-Arabs must continue to kill Jews because Israel continues to defend against murderous violence from Palestinian-Arabs.

 

[Mycroft]

Oh yeah:


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...le/ShowFull&cid=1119234009963&p=1078397702269

Al-Aksa leader Zubeidi to join PA police

495 fugitives and armed combatants from Jenin - including head of the Jenin Al Aksa Martyrs' Brigades Zakariya Zubeidi - have been recruited to the Palestinian security forces, Palestinian sources said.

The recruits will join the Palestinian security forces after Israel hands over Jenin to the PA, Israel Radio reported.

These are the people who will be required to enforce the Palestinian-Arabs promise to curb terrorism. They are the people who would enforce a cease fire. Can anyone spot any flaws in this plan?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Female bomber says attack was aimed at youth - Mon Jun 20, 2005

A female suicide bomber who planned to blow up at the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba on Monday, the same hospital where she received treatment for burns in the past, was caught at the Erez terminal crossing wearing explosives stitched to her underwear.

She said she wanted to kill up to 40 or 50 people - as many young people as possible. When asked why specifically young people, she said it was in retaliation for the death of Muhammad Dura. Dura was an 11-year-old Palestinian boy killed at the start of the Initifada, four and a half years ago in the Karni/Netzarim road.

She also said her motives for carrying out the attack were because the Koran had been torn up in the Megiddo prison.

A senior Israeli security official said human rights groups have often harshly criticized Israel in the past for carrying out inspections on sick Palestinians requiring medical treatment in Israel.

"Our dilemma is how to differentiate between those who really seek treatment and sometimes those who may suffer from terminal illnesses and figure they have nothing to lose by agreeing to carry out a suicide attack," the official said. "They are the ones we most fear, as they have nothing to lose, they gain popularity by becoming shahids (martyrs), and they are assured that their families will be taken care of. They are the ones we most fear," he said.

Elsewhere in the Gaza Strip, a total of six mortar shells were fired at Israeli settlements in central, southern and northern Gaza. No one was wounded in any of the attacks.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have yet to hear the Palestinian Authority claim they cannot maintain the ceasefire because of an eviction order from the municipality of Jerusalem. So tell me a_u_p, how does a story about an eviction order from the municipality of Jerusalem absolve the Palestinian Authority from it's responsibility for maintaining a ceasfire?

I seriously doubt the ability of the PA to control it's own people. As has been noted many times, the whole area is descending into anarchy. That does not mean Israel has the right to summarily steal land. You may also begin to wonder, how many new terrorists will appear from among these people when they are evicted and have nowhere to live.

Additionally, is the Palestinian Authority obligated by their promises to maintain a ceasefire or are their promises meaningless and irrelevant because of eviction orders from the municipality of Jerusalem?

The only circular logic happening here is you blame terrorism that predates the occupation as resistance to the occupation. The 1967 war happened because of repeated terrorism against Israel and shelling/attacks by the surrounding Arab countries. The creation of the PLO predates the occupation and PLO attacks predate the occupation. To these groups any jew in Palestine is occupied Palestine a_u_p. I have documented that so many times and still you deny it.

There is the official Fatah logo courtesy of Fatah.net - Fatah is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority. That country behind the guns - and above the grenade - a_u_p is "all of Palestine", not just part of it. The beginning of the end of the occupation could start tomorrow if the attacks stopped once and for all.

Rubbish, you know perfectly well the whole "Gush Emunim" rationale. The occupation is neccesary to expand the settlements.

Ever think you are debating for the bad guys, (terrorists), in this conflict a_u_p? Even for a brief second?

You see, that's you're whole problem, who are the good guys, and who are then, by definition, the bad guys.

I have no doubt there are plenty of "bad guys" in Palestine. It is a real concern that the number of "bad guys" appears to be growing, and that they are doing real harm to their own society, and Israelis.

But there is no argument over that. The issue is, what is Israel doing that is "bad guy" stuff.

 

[Elind]

You may also begin to wonder, how many new terrorists will appear from among these people when they are evicted and have nowhere to live.

Which newly evicted people? The Jewish settlers?

 

[a_unique_person]

Which newly evicted people? The Jewish settlers?

The settlers are being offered a land in a luxury housing estate, and are demanding their own private beach.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/589345.html

Nisanit residents offered luxury tracts near Ashkelon

By Yuval Azoulay

Disengagement Administration head Yonatan Bassi met Friday with representatives of the settlement of Nisanit in the northern Gaza Strip and Ashkelon Mayor Roni Mehatzri to discuss possible en bloc relocation to a luxury real estate tract in northwest Ashkelon, 800 meters from the beach. Also in attendence was Amigur public housing company CEO Yuval Frankel.

The area in question is the Shaked Compound, in the Golf Village area. The proposal would grant each family half a dunam, or an eighth of an acre, to build a private home.

At the meeting, attorney Sa'ar Reshef, who represents some 30 families from Nisanit, speaking on behalf of Nisanit's residential committee, demanded a private beach near the neighborhood, a commercial center, schools, kindergartens, green spaces, synagogues, a community center and more. He also demanded a promise from the Israel Lands Administration not to build high rises next to the neighborhood, as well as a reduction in municipal taxes during the first two years.

At the end of the meeting Bassi said, "Those demands of the Nisanit residents that fall within the framework of the Evacuation Compensation Law will be whole-heartedly accepted. Unreasonable demands will not be accepted."

...

Zafrir Rinat adds: The demand of Nisanit residents for a private beach contradicts the Coastline Protection Law which took effect last year. It also contradicts the law governing use of public lands, which designates beaches for use by the public at large, as well as the the national plan for beaches.

The government would have to seek a legal loophole to create a private beach, thereby engendering harsh opposition by environmental organizations. These groups would consider granting a private beach to a particular group of people as a terrible defeat for the campaign they are waging to reclaim access to beaches for the entire public.

 

[Elind]

The settlers are being offered a land in a luxury housing estate, and are demanding their own private beach.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/589345.html

Let me rephrase/repeat the question

quote:Originally posted by a_unique_person
You may also begin to wonder, how many new terrorists will appear from among these people when they are evicted and have nowhere to live.



Which newly evicted people? The Jewish settlers? Who else is being evicted from Gaza?

 

[Mycroft]

I seriously doubt the ability of the PA to control it's own people.

Let's just deal with this one sentence.

If you believe the PA doesn't have the ability to control its own people, do you think steps should be taken to improve this?

 

[The Fool]

Let's just deal with this one sentence.

If you believe the PA doesn't have the ability to control its own people, do you think steps should be taken to improve this?

yes, something must be done. I would suggest the same thing that was done to address the issue of Jewish terrorism in the middle east...address the issue of thier aspirations of nationhood. What do you believe would have been the consequences of refusing to "reward terrorism" in 1948...Continued British occupation?

As I don't believe there is any prospect of the current Israeli government voluntarily doing anything that progresses Palestinian statehood....Maybe its time to consider that intervention may be required to force a resolution...

 

[a_unique_person]

Let's just deal with this one sentence.

If you believe the PA doesn't have the ability to control its own people, do you think steps should be taken to improve this?

Everything that can be done to stop the slide into anarchy, cynicism, despair and fundamentalism.

It requires actual honesty from both sides. It requires the fundies on both sides to realise that people are suffering.

I can't see that happening, but I can confidently predict people will keep dying.

 

[zenith-nadir]

yes, something must be done. I would suggest the same thing that was done to address the issue of Jewish terrorism in the middle east......address the issue of thier aspirations of nationhood.

I don't think there is another people on earth who have had more chances to have a state of their own than the Palestinians. The issue of Palestinian nationhood has been addressed hundreds of times by the United Nations, Israel, America, the E.U. and surrounding Arab states over the course of the past decade. Hundreds of international diplomats since 1993 - when the Palestinian Authority came into being - have addressed Palestinian nationhood. Every single attempt to address Palestinian nationhood failed because Arafat was a DICTATOR more interested in power and money than a Palestinian state.

Everything that can be done to stop the slide into anarchy, cynicism, despair and fundamentalism. It requires actual honesty from both sides. It requires the fundies on both sides to realise that people are suffering. I can't see that happening, but I can confidently predict people will keep dying.

Palestinians suffer because their leaders allowed islamic fundamentalist groups like Hamas, Al Aqsa and Islamic Jihad to dictate Palestinian foreign policy with their closest neighbor, Israel for over a decade. Palestinians suffer because their supporters and leaders morphed islamic fundamentalism with Palestinian Nationalism, or have you forgotten the 60s, 70s and 80s when the PLO was Al Queda around the world?

The sooner you grasp those VITAL concepts a_u_p the sooner your words will have meaning at JREF in regards to the middle east. Just an F.Y.I.

Money dispute leads to Fatah shootout - June 20, 2005

(JP) - Rival Fatah gunmen exchanged gunfire in the Ramallah area over the past 48 hours, wounding several people.

The latest clashes occurred in spite of intensive efforts by the Palestinian Authority to crack down on armed militias responsible for increased lawlessness and anarchy in PA-controlled territories.

According to the sources, the latest confrontation was triggered by a financial dispute between rival Fatah groups in the village.

In more scenes of anarchy in the Gaza Strip, scores of Palestinians went on a rampage inside the offices of the PA Ministry of Social Welfare, destroying furniture and equipment. The attackers, who included many Palestinians injured in confrontations with the IDF, were protesting the ministry's failure to provide them with jobs.

Freed Terrorist Planned Suicide Attack - Jun 19, '05

Another Arab terrorist freed by PM Sharon this year was arrested Friday night by the IDF before he could launch a suicide bombing. Condoleezza Rice called on Israel to release more Arab prisoners.

The government disclosed Saturday night that soldiers uncovered an explosives laboratory in Jenin, where 50 kilograms (110 pounds) of explosive material was ready for a suicide attack. One of those arrested was Rami Mohamed Kandil, 21, an Islamic Jihad terrorist who the Sharon government released in February as one of its "good will" measures to build up confidence in Palestinian Authority (PA) chairman Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas). Security officials said Kandil was planning a suicide attack.

He is one of 900 freed prisoners and terrorists who signed a pledge not to engage in terror activity.

 

[zenith-nadir]

IDF detains 50 Islamic Jihad operatives overnight - June 21, 2005

(JP) - On the eve of the meeting between Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, Israel has stepped up operations against the Islamic Jihad after the escalation in terror attacks emanating from the terror group recently.

But with Islamic Jihad stepping up its activities this week, killing two Israelis, the military decided it will no longer limit its operations to "ticking bombs," but will go after anyone affiliated with the group, Lt. Col. Erez Winner, the IDF operations officer for the West Bank said.

"We operated against this group in a restrained manner," he said, both to preserve the calm and because many members of Islamic Jihad were hiding in Tulkarem, a West Bank town that Israeli handed over to Palestinian police as part of the cease-fire.

But "Islamic Jihad has taken itself absolutely out of the (cease-fire) agreement with its attacks, and so from our view, we are operating fully against them, as we did before," Winner said. "Anyone we know who is affiliated with this organization is a legitimate target."

Meanwhile, Palestinians fired seven mortar shells at Gaza Strip settlements Tuesday morning. One landed in northern Gaza, one in central Gaza and five in Gush Katif in southern Gaza.

Just before noon on Tuesday, A Kassam rocket was fired at a settlement in southern Gaza, causing no injuries or damage.

(emphasis mine)

In the oft-repeated words of Abba Eban, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity
to miss an opportunity". Now the gloves are off and the so-called ceasefire is over. Thanks Islamic Jihad.