Wisconsin Voter ID

Every time this issue comes up I point out that for all the complaints of mass voter fraud the Republicans (including republican attorneys as the OP points out) can never find any.

Sometimes I will quote myself later on and ask again. No one ever addresses that point. Just like no one ever actually answers the question: "Why is voter ID needed."

They claim fraud without evidence, or they talk about how other countries use ID's or other aspects of society require ID's but they never actually explain why it's needed.

So here is your big chance. I'm looking at you Neally, Applecore, Grizzly, Zig.
 
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Why shouldn't an ID be required to vote? We need one to apply for a valid driver's license at the DMV. We need one to travel internationally, we need them to show proof of age when we buy cigarettes and alcohol. We need them in some retail establishments to pay with a credit card. Is there something special that makes it problematic to keep the integrity of our democratic process?

If you're going to disagree with the need for the ID's you're entitled to do so but in this whole thread I count only one individual that actually articulated in reasonable detail why he would be against such laws and he explained where he would rather see those efforts directed in the voting hierarchy. And even if I don't totally agree with his position his/her articulation was rationale and thought out.

The vast majority of the others have based their primary complaints on the idea that voter ID laws are based on racism, minority suppression motives, and fraud, with the majority of them lacking substantiation. And even for cases where these arguments apply, nobody seems to believe that such laws can't be drafted to build in the sufficient protections in doing so... Wouldn't the democratic party be able to provide the needed checks and balances for these laws to help ensure that if/when they're drafted they ensure the protections they promise and not suppress?

Anyway... my position is the same as before. The ID laws don't inherently bother me. If they are drafted in a way that'll harm the voting process however my stance is to take the law back and rework it and get theose problem pieces out.
 
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The_Animus said:
Every time this issue comes up I point out that for all the complaints of mass voter fraud the Republicans (including republican attorneys as the OP points out) can never find any.
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Every time this issue comes up I point out that for all the complaints of mass voter disenfranchisement the Democrats can never find any.

Sometimes I will quote myself later on and ask again. No one ever addresses that point. Just like no one ever actually answers the question: "Why is voter ID needed."
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Because it increases public confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

One of the problems with voter fraud is that it's actually pretty hard to prosecute. Another problem is that if the political process ever does become corrupted by voter fraud, there's little we can do to reverse the process. Politicians who have been elected through voter fraud will not have any incentive to crack down on it, quite the reverse, they'll do what they can to protect it. So being proactive in preventing it with rather simple measures, which most of the rest of the world already uses, seems like really not that big a deal. The vitriol with which such measures are opposed is not commensurate with the burden it actually imposes.
 
Ziggurat said:
Every time this issue comes up I point out that for all the complaints of mass voter disenfranchisement the Democrats can never find any.
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So... you you think we should pass a law to protect against a nonexistent problem because you feel the problem created by the law is also nonexistent.

That totally makes sense.

Because it increases public confidence in the integrity of the voting process.
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Oh I see. The law is to make people feel better about voter fraud.

I guess the people who will feel worse about voter disenfranchised if these laws are passed are out of luck, because their feelings don't count as much.

One of the problems with voter fraud is that it's actually pretty hard to prosecute. Another problem is that if the political process ever does become corrupted by voter fraud, there's little we can do to reverse the process. Politicians who have been elected through voter fraud will not have any incentive to crack down on it, quite the reverse, they'll do what they can to protect it. So being proactive in preventing it with rather simple measures, which most of the rest of the world already uses, seems like really not that big a deal. The vitriol with which such measures are opposed is not commensurate with the burden it actually imposes.
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I have a magic rock that will protect you from tiger attacks.

You should buy this rock from me.

Sure, the tigers aren't here yet... but who knows what the future holds?

PM me so we can exchange Paypal information.
 
Ziggurat said:
Because it increases public confidence in the integrity of the voting process.
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This claim has been around long enough to have been studied, and it's been falsified.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1099056

In any case, if you wanted to shore up confidence in the process, why would you start with voter impersonation (which occurs in single digit numbers, if it occurs at all) when you could look at absentee ballot fraud, which is much more widespread?

Maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, it has something to do with the fact that absentee ballots tend to favor Republican candidates, and so introducing obstacles to absentee ballot voting is unattractive to the Republican legislators who have championed these laws.
 
johnny karate said:
Why should it?
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I don't know about you but I generally carry my ID wherever I go because well... I have a car I drive from point "A" to point "B" and where I'm from, driving requires a form of ID to show that I'm licensed. I'm not going to cry foul about having to pull it out of my wallet one extra time so I can spend a few minutes to cast a ballot on a vote.

This is 2-page long thread, so before you you swing you're interesting sarcasm on how my positions are somewhere around the irrational route, perhaps you might want to take the interest to actually read them? You might actually learn a lot about my position which will alleviate any "concerns" you have that I would support a bill specifically designed around the idea of doing wrong. But I do reserve the right to call out ridiculous arguments that blow the issue far beyond proportion, just as you reserve the right to criticize laws if you feel the justification for the law's motivation and timing should be in doubt
 
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Grizzly Bear said:
Why shouldn't an ID be required to vote? We need one to apply for a valid driver's license at the DMV. We need one to travel internationally, we need them to show proof of age when we buy cigarettes and alcohol. We need them in some retail establishments to pay with a credit card. Is there something special that makes it problematic to keep the integrity of our democratic process?
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The reasons people give for saying we need voter ID are potential voter fraud, and because other things require ID's. I just explained why they are both bad arguments but I'll try again.

First, there is no problem with the integrity of our democratic process. There is no voter fraud. There is no problem. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Second, why shouldn't an ID be required to vote? You need one to buy cigarettes. Why shouldn't an ID be required to play tennis? You need one to buy alcohol.

Why not have voter ID is because there is no reason to. Because it costs money, new legislation, and can accidentally or intentionally be used to suppress the vote. Now tell me why we need voter ID.
 
The_Animus, you can refer to my response to Johnny. In addition I'm not so rabidly invested in the debate that I'm going to perpetually pursue it. It doesn't bother me that you have a different opinion about the necessity of such laws; I just find some of the reasoning expressed by others for not implementing them to be ludicrous. Maybe you have legitimate concerns, if so I'm unlikely to completely disagree with you on everything, for example I find your reasoning above understandable (and way better than other responses). But the concept of such laws is in my opinion still valid.
 
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Ziggurat said:
Every time this issue comes up I point out that for all the complaints of mass voter disenfranchisement the Democrats can never find any.



Because it increases public confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

One of the problems with voter fraud is that it's actually pretty hard to prosecute. Another problem is that if the political process ever does become corrupted by voter fraud, there's little we can do to reverse the process. Politicians who have been elected through voter fraud will not have any incentive to crack down on it, quite the reverse, they'll do what they can to protect it. So being proactive in preventing it with rather simple measures, which most of the rest of the world already uses, seems like really not that big a deal. The vitriol with which such measures are opposed is not commensurate with the burden it actually imposes.
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There are plenty of studies about voter disenfranchisement.
https://www.aclu.org/maps/map-state-criminal-disfranchisement-laws
 
Ziggurat said:
Every time this issue comes up I point out that for all the complaints of mass voter disenfranchisement the Democrats can never find any.
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This makes me feel bad, Zig. If I'd only known you were in search of such evidence, I would have immediately provided it. Go to the examples section. EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of voter caging is Republicans doing it to the Dems.

You're welcome.
 
It strikes me as interesting that the reaction to the fact a disproportionate number of minorities and poor people don't have legal identification is to fuss over their ability to vote. I’d be more concerned about insisting that they get IDs so they can participate in 99.99% of our economy and society.

Good luck renting a tennis court without an ID.
 
Beeyon said:
It strikes me as interesting that the reaction to the fact a disproportionate number of minorities and poor people don't have legal identification is to fuss over their ability to vote. I’d be more concerned about insisting that they get IDs so they can participate in 99.99% of our economy and society.

Good luck renting a tennis court without an ID.
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Yes! Although I do believe that most people do have IDs, but if not they can figure how to get one if needed for every day life such as cashing a check, pick up or send money to their families. Whatever it takes to live a life. I have always been shocked that we show no ID to vote. Still don't.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Let them play polo.
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Or picking up an RX, seeing an apartment or booking a viewing of a house or condo. Even celebs have to show an ID out here to book an Association Tennis Court.
Showing an ID is the price of doing business in America.
 
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ABC10 said:
Or picking up an RX, seeing an apartment or booking a viewing of a house or condo. Even celebs have to show an ID out here to book an Association Tennis Court.
Showing an ID is the price of doing business in America.
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I wonder who is more likely not to have a valid photo ID:

a) A middle-to-upper class person who can seriously entertain ideas like renting her own apartment, buying a condo, or taking up tennis (I'm omitting picking up prescriptions, since you don't need a photo ID for that in many states, including Wisconsin)

or

b) Someone who lives in poverty, going from one crisis to the next, barely making ends meet, with a personal history of instability, who relies on friends, relatives or public assistance for their survival

Hint: the answer is b).

These comments are Romneyesque in their inability to imagine how life proceeds for people on the margins of our society.
 
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