Will Democrats ever concede on immigration?

[Trausti]

No they don't. Bernie isn't a Democrat, and he does not express any opposition to mass immigration in that quote.

Are these Democrats?

 

[mumblethrax]

Yes, those count as Democrats. They are not expressing views that are markedly different from those held by Democrats today.

I don't see what the point of this is.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, those count as Democrats. They are not expressing views that are markedly different from those held by Democrats today.

I don't see what the point of this is.

Are you kidding?

 

[Venom]

You'll have to point me to where "the squad" and associated acts express a desire to "dismantle the nation-state". And they (the DSA left) definitely still put class first.

Sanders once recognized mass immigration as a threat. How do the new gen leftists talk about it? Do you really need specific examples of this?

Indefinite TPS extension, living in the country while waiting for a court date, a "pathway to citizenship" all these Democrats talk about (I assume similar to the 2021 Biden plan) and if they obtain a work permit it's even more difficult to send them home if they don't want to go. These are different methods for the same ends.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Sanders once recognized mass immigration as a threat. How do the new gen leftists talk about it? Do you really need specific examples of this?

Indefinite TPS extension, living in the country while waiting for a court date, a "pathway to citizenship" all these Democrats talk about (I assume similar to the 2021 Biden plan) and if they obtain a work permit it's even more difficult to send them home if they don't want to go. These are different methods for the same ends.

Yep, the "ends" are not being a dick by treating other people like ◊◊◊◊.

 

[mumblethrax]

Are you kidding?

No.

Sanders once recognized mass immigration as a threat.

No, he didn't. He recognized Koch-style libertarianism as a threat.

Indefinite TPS extension, living in the country while waiting for a court date, a "pathway to citizenship" all these Democrats talk about (I assume similar to the 2021 Biden plan) and if they obtain a work permit it's even more difficult to send them home if they don't want to go. These are different methods for the same ends.

No, they aren't. They are the kinds of policies we'd expect from any halfway rational immigration system.

 

[Venom]

No, he didn't. He recognized Koch-style libertarianism as a threat.

Because....Koch style libertarianism brings in immigrant labor, "makes everyone poorer", and threatens the "nation-state". That's what he said.

No, they aren't. They are the kinds of policies we'd expect from any halfway rational immigration system.

So how do you punish rule breakers who take advantage of these methods?

 

[Manopolus]

Because....Koch style libertarianism brings in immigrant labor, "makes everyone poorer", and threatens the "nation-state". That's what he said.


So how do you punish rule breakers who take advantage of these methods?

Perhaps you could punish the people actually importing illegal immigrant workers while voting for the same stupid party that you apparently do? I mean, they aren't even coming in uninvited. Not really. Don't blame the worker for applying for an illegal job his cousin already has. There's somebody that keeps paying them. And yes, those people vote Republican quite reliably. Or at least any of them that I've ever met did (but please note that my evidence that they do it knowingly is entirely circumstantial or hearsay, and possibly even false, but they're openly Republican. Every single one of them).

But let me be clear. I'm not the one complaining about them being here. I'm perfectly okay with people that didn't grow up here as long as they mostly behave. It doesn't bother me that they exist. I do find the mechanisms that brought them here somewhat objectionable though... at least in some cases (not including genuine student visa overstays, for instance, which is what the only case where a friend was deported was... and no, I'm not making excuses for him and was only distantly aware of his situation).

 

[mumblethrax]

Because....Koch style libertarianism brings in immigrant labor, "makes everyone poorer", and threatens the "nation-state". That's what he said.

Yes. Think about this critically for a moment. Why would he talk about $2 or $3 per hour wages in this context? He's talking about permissive immigration policy coupled with non-existent worker protections. That's the situation we have with illegal immigration. It's not the situation we would have if anyone could come here and work freely and still enjoy basic worker protections.

So how do you punish rule breakers who take advantage of these methods?

It's more or less impossible to "take advantage of" TPS protections. Those exist for a handful of countries that have been deemed too unsafe to return people to. A "pathway to citizenship" isn't a thing to be "taken advantage of"--it's basically the point of an immigration system. Living in this country while you await a hearing...if that's a problem, it's only a problem because of the absurd wait times for immigration hearings. That's an us problem, not a them problem.

I don't see why anyone should be punished for coming here and working for a living. Again, we presumably want a rational immigration system, not a punitive one.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I am encouraged by the fact that Venom sees a Blue Wave coming and hope it won't be the communist immigrant takeover he's be told it will be.
Negotiating is part of the grieving process

 

[The Great Zaganza]

If you want to restrict migration, you also have to restrict the flow of assets and goods, or the system will be unstable, causing massive poverty and inequality, exactly what we are seeing.

The obvious, well know, well tested method to reduce migration is to invest in the countries migration originates from, creating growth, jobs and wealth there.

But it has been Western Policy forever to extract wealth from the rest of the world and prevent any attempts of countries to shield their nascent economies from globalization or speculations on food and resources.

Of course it's much easier to just kill people seeking a better life.

 

[Venom]

Yes. Think about this critically for a moment. Why would he talk about $2 or $3 per hour wages in this context? He's talking about permissive immigration policy coupled with non-existent worker protections. That's the situation we have with illegal immigration. It's not the situation we would have if anyone could come here and work freely and still enjoy basic worker protections.

That's one way to spin it. But in context that's not what Sanders meant. His answer was prompted by a question about higher immigration levels and he said he opposes it because the adage is a larger pool of workers will depress wages. Why would he mention the nation-state in that answer if it was about "basic worker protections"?

It's more or less impossible to "take advantage of" TPS protections. Those exist for a handful of countries that have been deemed too unsafe to return people to. A "pathway to citizenship" isn't a thing to be "taken advantage of"--it's basically the point of an immigration system. Living in this country while you await a hearing...if that's a problem, it's only a problem because of the absurd wait times for immigration hearings. That's an us problem, not a them problem.

I don't see why anyone should be punished for coming here and working for a living. Again, we presumably want a rational immigration system, not a punitive one.

My point is it's unsustainable. TPS can be extended indefinitely so long as the President/DHS is looking out for you, even if its technically safe to go back. Many TPS-protected Haitians have been in the U.S. since the original 2010 disaster. The pathway to citizenship is basically something we propose when we decide they've been here too long "welp, no point in sending them back!"

We wouldn't want to cause a scene or see anybody cry on TV so this is going to be the routine from now on because our process is strained by vast numbers of applicants and we're backlogged a million cases.

 

[gabeygoat]

at what cost?
seriously, was it worth $110 billion plus dozens of deaths, multiple US citizens ones, plus legal residents and citizens spending weeks or months in jail or even being deported?
Americans being harassed daily by armed men in masks?

Venom, is that really the price you are happy for everyone, including you, to pay to get a tiny % of migrants out of the country faster?

this is an obvious "cure worse than the disease" situation, and you don't want to see it.

A high cost indeed. But in 2026, I think many Americans are willing to pay.

Ah, the Right Wing version of small government.

 

[Orphia Nay]

what does a dem concession on immigration mean to you?

@Venom you haven't said. What does a "Democrat concession on immigration" mean to you?

 

[Venom]

If you want to restrict migration, you also have to restrict the flow of assets and goods, or the system will be unstable, causing massive poverty and inequality, exactly what we are seeing.

The obvious, well know, well tested method to reduce migration is to invest in the countries migration originates from, creating growth, jobs and wealth there.

Well yes. I'd go further, maybe even take administrative control of some struggling countries.

 

[mumblethrax]

That's one way to spin it. But in context that's not what Sanders meant.

Yes it is.

His answer was prompted by a question about higher immigration levels and he said he opposes it because the adage is a larger pool of workers will depress wages. Why would he mention the nation-state in that answer if it was about "basic worker protections"?

He very clearly is responding to the "open borders" part of the question. He very clearly is referring to Koch when he talks about ending the United States. He doesn't talk about "ending the nation-state" at all, that's just you trying to smuggle in some ethnonationalist justification for restrictive immigration.

My point is it's unsustainable.

No it isn't. You could extend TPS protection indefinitely and nothing bad would happen.

The pathway to citizenship is basically something we propose when we decide they've been here too long "welp, no point in sending them back!"

More like it would be extremely disruptive to send them back, and not just for them.

 

[Venom]

what does a dem concession on immigration mean to you?

@Venom you haven't said. What does a "Democrat concession on immigration" mean to you?

At the very least it would mean keeping current levels of border enforcement. This should be the new normal for a while.

 

[Manopolus]

Well yes. I'd go further, maybe even take administrative control of some struggling countries.

Just as long as you understand that this is the dictionary definition of "colonization" and fundamentally makes the Monroe Doctrine a worthless piece of paper. It's literally everything this country was fighting against since its founding.

 

[Venom]

Yes it is.


He very clearly is responding to the "open borders" part of the question. He very clearly is referring to Koch when he talks about ending the United States. He doesn't talk about "ending the nation-state" at all, that's just you trying to smuggle in some ethnonationalist justification for restrictive immigration.

He's clearly talking about the influx of people. He continues

"we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer."

In other words...we can solve international poverty without bringing millions of poor foreigners here, which would depress American wages.

No it isn't. You could extend TPS protection indefinitely and nothing bad would happen.

About 9% of U.S. births in 2023 were to unauthorized or temporary legal immigrant mothers

Generally, the trends in births to unauthorized immigrants follow the growth and decline of the unauthorized immigrant population.

www.pewresearch.org

More like it would be extremely disruptive to send them back, and not just for them.

Somebody has to do something.

 

[Venom]

Just as long as you understand that this is the dictionary definition of "colonization" and fundamentally makes the Monroe Doctrine a worthless piece of paper. It's literally everything this country was fighting against since its founding.

Call it what you want. We need ways to built lasting stability in these regions. Consider charter cities or long-term international safe zones.