Wiccan instructuions are Defective

Iacchus said:
And when was the last in antiquity that religion did not have anything to do anything else? Given enough time perhaps, maybe we can account all sorts of things attributable to Atheism?
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Like I said before, it's very hard to get atheists to fly planes into a building with the promise of eternity with houris.
 
Clarification:

There is no hatred involved in this discussion.
Both my parents once practiced magic.
I saw NOTHING good come from it except the violation of other people's will and freedom of choice or the attempted violation.

Also, as I pointed out before, the official stance is that Wiccans do not take offense at discussions or disagreements in refereence to what they believe. Which leads me to conclude that those who are taking offense here are not really Wiccans but maybe ignorant misguided supporters or Wannabe Wiccans, Satanists? Atheists? Agnostics? or just plain haters of Chrisatianity who must need get in their kicks.
 
Radrook said:
Clarification:

There is no hatred involved in this discussion.
Both my parents once practiced magic.
I saw NOTHING good come from it except the violation of other people's will and freedom of choice or the attempted violation.

Also, as I pointed out before, the official stance is that Wiccans do not take offense at discussions or disagreements in refereence to what they believe. Which leads me to conclude that those who are taking offense here are not really Wiccans but maybe ignorant misguided supporters or Wannabe Wiccans, Satanists? Atheists? Agnostics? or just plain haters of Chrisatianity who must need get in their kicks.
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And we move from your auntie to your parents. So what violations or attempted violations of free will did your parents do?

Who says I'm taking offense? I'm just showing that the bible's instructions have a long way to go.
 
You really think your parents' magics can overcome a person's free-will, that they can control people using magic?

You might not like your parents, but maybe you can direct them to the JREF challenge so that they can claim their million-dollar prize.
 
dmarker said:

Like I said before, it's very hard to get atheists to fly planes into a building with the promise of eternity with houris.
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All I'm saying is you don't have a yardstick to measure this by, since most everyone was religious up until recent history.
 
Iacchus said:
All I'm saying is you don't have a yardstick to measure this by, since most everyone was religious up until recent history.
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Okay, you got me for atheism was punishable by death until about the time of the Enlightenment.

However you must admit that it would be hard to convince an atheist to commit murder for a heavenly award that he doesn't believe exists.
 
Radrook said:
I saw NOTHING good come from it except the violation of other people's will and freedom of choice or the attempted violation.
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I'm curious if you have ever prayed to God for someone to do something or change their mind about something? (i.e. "Please give so-and-so the ability to see the error of their ways") How is that any different?

If I recall correctly, in the Old Testimate, God violated the wills and freedoms of many people, anywhere from "hardening" their hearts to wiping out whole communities. Heck, even going back to Eden, God forbade Adam and Eve from choosing wisdom.
 
dmarker said:

Okay, you got me for atheism was punishable by death until about the time of the Enlightenment.

However you must admit that it would be hard to convince an atheist to commit murder for a heavenly award that he doesn't believe exists.
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Oh, there are other types of rewards, I can assure you, all centered about the love of self, mind you. ;)

So, would you say that anybody who doesn't act in a Godly way or manner, is an Atheist? Say like a Hell's Angel for example?
 
Upchurch said:
I'm curious if you have ever prayed to God for someone to do something or change their mind about something? (i.e. "Please give so-and-so the ability to see the error of their ways") How is that any different?

If I recall correctly, in the Old Testimate, God violated the wills and freedoms of many people, anywhere from "hardening" their hearts to wiping out whole communities. Heck, even going back to Eden, God forbade Adam and Eve from choosing wisdom.
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I have made requests that God might provide the person with the means for self improvement. I also request that for myself. But I am not requesting that the person or I be literally possessed or forced into change by losing our freedom of choice.

The ones shown in the Bible as possessing people doing are demons.

The violations you speak of in the OT are not violations at all.
A violation would be taking something that rightfully belongs to others. In the case of life, all life belongs to God. So his choosing to take it does not constitute any violation at all.

As to the hardening of the heart--there are ways to do this without mentally possessing the person. Granting him to exist alone was a way of hardening his heart since it led him to believe that he still stood a chance.

Of course you are free to understand it your way.
But that is my understanding of it.
 
Iacchus said:
Oh, there are other types of rewards, I can assure you, all centered about the love of self, mind you. ;)

So, would you say that anybody who doesn't act in a Godly way or, manner, is an Atheist? Say like a Hell's Angel for example?
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Considering what's in the bible, anybody who murders is acting in a Godly way.

Deuteronomy:

13:6
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

13:10
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
 
I have made requests that God might provide the person with the means for self improvement. I also request that for myself. But I am not requesting that the person or I be literally possessed or forced into change by losing our freedom of choice.

Would it really matter if you did? I mean, do you really think your parents were controlling people with magic? Do you think prayers can control people?


The violations you speak of in the OT are not violations at all.
A violation would be taking something that rightfully belongs to others. In the case of life, all life belongs to God. So his choosing to take it does not constitute any violation at all.

BS. This is not relevant in the free-will discussion at all. You say your god gives people free-will, but then that god imposes rules upon people punishable by death and your god has killed people that did not succumb to his will. At that point, it's no longer free will.

As to the hardening of the heart--there are ways to do this without mentally possessing the person. Granting him to exist alone was a way of hardening his heart since it led him to believe that he still stood a chance.

More BS, that is just a different means to the same ends.. which is the submersion of freewill.

Of course you are free to understand it your way.
But that is my understanding of it.

Yes, but you are an idiot. You understand little but post anyway.
 
I would think that if I acted "Godly" that I would be placed in jail. After all, what kind of person destroys nations because he didn't quite like how it turned out? What kind of idiot creates a world, then floods it because it wasn't up to spec, then demands it's inhabitants to worship him?
 
Radrook said:
I have made requests that God might provide the person with the means for self improvement. I also request that for myself. But I am not requesting that the person or I be literally possessed or forced into change by losing our freedom of choice.

The ones shown in the Bible as possessing people doing are demons.

The violations you speak of in the OT are not violations at all.
A violation would be taking something that rightfully belongs to others. In the case of life, all life belongs to God. So his choosing to take it does not constitute any violation at all.

As to the hardening of the heart--there are ways to do this without mentally possessing the person. Granting him to exist alone was a way of hardening his heart since it led him to believe that he still stood a chance.

Of course you are free to understand it your way.
But that is my understanding of it.
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So the people who pray that God subverts my free will are actually not Christian?

What you are saying is that man doesn't have free will.

What does "granting him to exist alone" mean?
 
dmarker said:

Considering what's in the bible, anybody who murders is acting in a Godly way.
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Of course this is not what I always thought it was meant to be. I always thought it mean to be decent towards one another.
 
dmarker said:

So the people who pray that God subverts my free will are actually not Christian?

What you are saying is that man doesn't have free will.

What does "granting him to exist alone" mean?
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Yes, religion can be and, often is a crutch. So what, so is cigarette smoking. Are you implying that you actually know people who are without a crutch? Boy, that'll be the day! ;)
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, religion can be and, often is a crutch. So what, so is cigarette smoking. Are you implying that you actually know people who are without a crutch? Boy, that'll be the day! ;)
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I know lots of people. Don't make the mistake of assuming your personal weaknesses are universal- no matter what Robert A Johnson told you. This is the primary error he made in that book you recommended to me.
 
Piscivore said:

I know lots of people. Don't make the mistake of assuming your personal weaknesses are universal- no matter what Robert A Johnson told you. This is the primary error he made in that book you recommended to me.
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And, might I suggest you don't hold onto that which you can't keep? What's this got to do with the price of eggs anyway?
 
Iacchus said:
Of course this is not what I always thought it was meant to be. I always thought it mean to be decent towards one another.
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That's because you've been spoon fed the bible. You need to read it in its entirety.

2 Thessalonians:


2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So instead of god giving his children the love of truth, he makes them believe delusions and then damns them for the unbelief that he created.

Does that sound decent to you, Iacchus?
 
dmarker said:

That's because you've been spoon fed the bible. You need to read it in its entirety.
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Actually I don't go to church. And, except for when I was very young, I never have and, probably never will.
 
Iacchus said:
Actually I don't go to church. And, except for when I was very young, I never have, and probably never will.
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I never said anything about church, did I?

And here's what Jesus will do to families:

Matthew
10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


Would a decent person set family member upon one another?
 
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