• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Why WTC7 should not have collapsed

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jihad Jane, do your own homework. The information you request is available all over this site, at NIST, and elsewhere.

In general, it is evident that she/ he lacks technical expertise and is trying to claim that doesn't matter. That old canard; "if I don't know it, it doesn't count." Reality doesn't work that way.

Just another troll with too much time on her/ his hands, and too little in the way of social interaction outside of a keyboard.
 
Ditto the DM's Osama bin Laden theory.

Nineteen terrorists hijacking airliners and deliberately crashing them into prominent US buildings seems a remarkably simple narrative to me. As for corroboration from the evidence, every piece of evidence that hasn't been either invented, distorted or misinterpreted corroborates this story.

NIST's speculative WTC 7 theory is not grounded in tangible, physical reality and calling it simply an "explanation" is misleading. It is a possible explanation requiring confirmation in the real world.

It is grounded in tangible, physical reality to the extent that it obeys known physical laws (as you have already admitted), is based on the known behaviour of known materials and follows the known behaviour of the building from ample documentary evidence. There is enormous support for this explanation from evidence, and the fact that you choose to ignore the existence of that evidence is of very little importance to anyone but you.

Dave
 
NIST's speculative WTC 7 theory is not grounded in tangible, physical reality and calling it simply an "explanation" is misleading. It is a possible explanation requiring confirmation in the real world.

This, of course, can never happen because the real world, in this case, has been shipped abroad and melted down.
(my bolding)

In structural design, we don't determine the load path of all the various loads in the structure. We determine a load path, which generally makes the structure safe. Unfortunately if not detailed correctly various things will deform and crack (such as concrete slabs and exterior sheathing), which generally upsets the owners.

What NIST has done here is shown a collapse mechanism. It may or may not be the collapse mechanism. It seems to fit the limited photographic of the collapse fairly well however.

How can this collapse mechanism be "grounded in tangible, physical reality" to your satisfaction?
 
WTC7 structural damage analysis (long contribution)

Pls note introduction of problem in Comment No. 1 below. Below is a draft of submittal of comments to NIST and JREF members are welcome to comment prior my sending it to NIST.

Submittal of Comments

Name: Anders Björkman, 6 rue Victor Hugo, F 06240 France
Affiliation: President, Heiwa Co, European Agency for Safety at Sea (address as above)
Contact: +336 61725424, anders.bjorkman@wanadoo.fr

Report Number: NIST NCSTAR 1-9
Page Number: 455-536
Paragraph/Sentence: Chapter 11 - 11.2 ANSYS Model, 11.3 Analysis results

Comment No. 1: In structural damage analysis - as opposite to structural design analysis - it is not a load path of the intact structure that is of interest, but the path of failures from the first small local failure due to a known cause (e.g. fire) to the end of destruction including all structural failures in between as a consequence of the first, small failure. Such a damage analysis shall identify the critical failure in the path that caused the end result, i.e. could the critical failure be avoided, then the destruction would have been arrested there.

The NIST WTC7 draft report fails to do this proper structural damage analysis:

It is not clear in what order the various local structural failures take place in the ANSYS model, what elements/nodes are affected, details of failure, cause of failure and consequence of failure (serious or can be ignored?) and how the boundary conditions (loads on columns at floor 16) are affected.

Reason for Comment: The ANSYS model consists of primary (vertical columns connected to ground), secondary (horizontal and sloping beams connected to primary parts) and tertiary parts (e.g. floor elements connected to secondary parts; beams) and associated connections, and it is of vital importance to know the order of failures. We know that the structure at ambient temperature is very low stressed and thus looks very safe.
Heat/thermal expansion may affect a tertiary member that heats up quicker than adjacent secondary members and the local connections may fail and the tertiary part is out of action but it hardly affects the effectiveness of the secondary part, which of course is verified when the FEA analysis is re-done after each failure. The secondary parts and their connections to primary parts are much stronger than tertiary parts and will deflect with the primary parts and it is highly unlikely that thermal expansion will produce forces that break the much stronger connections between secondary and primary parts.

Suggestions for Revision: Chapter 11.2 to be expanded with a list of local failures in order of occurrence with details and seriousness as outlined above in Comment No. 1. After each failure the condition of the model is evidently re-analysed by FEA and the results of each element (primary, secondary and tertiary) summarized in Chapter 11.2. Doing that we will know when the situation becomes really serious, e.g. when/if primary parts start to get affected. Evidently a global collapse is only possible if primary parts are affected and we are interested in all local failures leading to that. The draft report is incomplete in this respect.

Also the boundary conditions at floor 16 may be affected by local, initial failures, e.g. if a column fails for any reason you cannot assume that the (boundary) load on it applied at floor 16 remains constant. It would be very easy to extend the ANSYS model to 47 floors to solve that uncertainty. Then you can see how each failure below floor 16 affects the load distribution above floor 16. Thus it is suggested that the ANSYS model is extended to floor 47.


Report Number: NIST NCSTAR 1-9
Page Number: 537-600
Paragraph/Sentence: Chapter 12

Comment No. 2: The LS-DYNA 47 floors model is very big with >3 million elements and >3.5 million nodes and the data of a partly damaged ANSYS model incl. boundary conditions is copy/pasted into it to represent the starting condition. As shown in Comment No. 1 the details of damaged ANSYS model are not clear and it is not certain if it represents a realistic start condition. Another question is if you can copy/paste data of a damaged structure into an undamaged one? What about the boundary conditions at floor 16? Another question is the reliability of the software. Has it been tested properly?

Reason for Comment: The LS-DYNA, like the ANSYS model, consists of primary (vertical columns connected to ground), secondary (horizontal and sloping beams connected to primary parts) and tertiary parts (e.g. floor elements connected to secondary parts; beams) and associated connections, and it is again of vital importance to know the order of failures. We know that the structure at ambient temperature is very low stressed and thus looks very safe.

Heat/thermal expansion may at this time have affected tertiary parts below floor 16, the local connections of which may have failed and the tertiary part is out of action and it has apparently affected the effectiveness of the secondary parts, but the situation is not clear. The secondary parts and their connections to primary parts are much stronger than tertiary parts and will deflect with the primary parts and it is highly unlikely that thermal expansion will produce forces that break the connections between secondary and primary parts. However, it is assumed that some secondary and primary parts below floor 16 have actually failed and shifted out of initial locations affecting the boundary conditions at floor 16.

It is of course of interest to know how these local failures below floor 16 immediately affect the virtually undamaged structure above, when (A) the analysis starts and (B) every further failure that follows and finally, (C) at the end when all parts are rubble.

It is evidently possible that when a primary column fails below floor 16, the load on it is transmitted to adjacent columns via intact structure above floor 16, i.e. the boundary conditions must be modified in the ANSYS model analysis. Was it done?

It is not clear how the software LS-DYNA can keep track of parts that are completely disconnected from the structure due to multiple failures.

Suggestion for Revision: The method to copy/paste details of the ANSYS (Chapter 11) model at end of assumed failures below floor 16 produces uncertainties. It would be better to start afresh with the LS-DYNA model and input all the local - serious (?) failures - one by one - as identified in the ANSYS model below floor 16 and see what happens everywhere at every initial, local failure and then proceed with the further failures, one by one, away from the first failures..

Chapter 12 thus to be expanded with a list of all further local failures above and below floor 16 in order of occurrence with details and seriousness as outlined above in Comment No. 1. After each failure the condition of the model is evidently re-analysed by FEA and the results of each element (primary, secondary and tertiary) summarized in Chapter 12.4. Doing that we will know when the situation becomes really serious, e.g. when/if other primary parts start to get affected and why and what the real failure of total collapse is. Had that failure been avoided, the destruction would have stopped then and there. But apparently the failures continue until total destruction. Then details of elements/parts getting completely detached from the structure can be given and how these loose parts are assumed to load the structure then.

Evidently a global collapse is only possible if all primary parts of the structure are affected and we are interested in all local failures leading to that. The draft report is incomplete in this respect. I am personally quite surprised that the local failures down below around a few columns are not arrested, when running out energy to produce further failures up top. Just because one or two column fails due to local failures, should not cause other, complete intact columns to fail far away.

Actually, if the LS-DYNA software can produce what is suggested, it should be able to simulate all the structural conditions from (A) the completely intact, prior fire, cold condition, (B) all the part damaged conditions with still intact structure left and not least, (C) the end condition, when all structural parts or sub-assemblies are disconnected in the rubble at equilibrium on the ground

There are (C) huge blocks of structure in the rubble with broken primary parts (columns). The LS-DYNA software apparently can simulate how these big blocks bounded by failed elements came about, e.g. how the primary columns were sheared off away from bolted and welded connections, and ended up as seen on many photos. It is also a good test to verify the reliability of the LS-DYNA software, details of which are completely unknown to me. (Only reference to LS-DYNA is a user's manual of little value).

If the LS-DYNA software is as good as suggested, it can be used in analysing structural damages in ship collisions and thus improve safety at sea (my principal interest).
 
It is interesting to note that NIST could not explain or simulate the collapse modes of WTC1, except that released potential energy exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed.
A building is not designed to support the weight of a significant portion of it's mass in motion.

In WTC7 the collapse is explained using a fantastic FEA software that can keep account of parts/elements that are loose at both ends and flying around in the air applying forces and transmitting energies, when contacting other parts. Hollywood stuff. Of course, that software has never been verified against reality.

Furthermore, if that FEA worked correctly, it should of course simulate exactly the heap of rubble after the 'collapse' and explain every failure then seen on photos of broken parts in the rubble. I always wonder how solid columns are cut straight off due to gravity and the dynamic FEA should explain those failures.
It is absurd to think that a computer simulation of an event as chaotic as the collapse of WTC1&2 would end up precisly the same as it did in actuality. There isn't enough memory or computational power on the planet yet.

Tell you what. Rent some supercomputer time and run a simulation of the WTC collapses with explosives. See what the results will be. If the resulting heap rubble in the simulation does not look exactly as it did on 9/11 we'll consider it a failure. Deal?
 
Pls note introduction of problem in Comment No. 1 below. Below is a draft of submittal of comments to NIST and JREF members are welcome to comment prior my sending it to NIST. [... followed by pretty much a big pile of crap that shows how totally jaded Heiwa is because of his desperate desire to cling to a wacky conspiracy theory ...]


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knows that the primary, secondary, and tertiary components Heiwa writes about have a strictly hierarchical dependence. Everyone knows that the primary vertical support columns for a building are constructed first. Take them to the top. Taller and taller until their full height is reached. Then they start adding the horizontal beams. Because those columns don't need the beams to help support them. We know that if a few, or many, of the secondary and tertiary components fail at their connection points, all those columns will just keep on standing because there is no interdependence among those columns and beams. Yeah, right.

Heiwa, you must be yanking our chains here. Nobody could seriously claim to be an engineer or construction expert at any level, and be stupid enough to actually believe all that crap you just wrote. Nifty hunk of satire, though! :)
 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knows that the primary, secondary, and tertiary components Heiwa writes about have a strictly hierarchical dependence. Everyone knows that the primary vertical support columns for a building are constructed first. Take them to the top. Taller and taller until their full height is reached. Then they start adding the horizontal beams. Because those columns don't need the beams to help support them. We know that if a few, or many, of the secondary and tertiary components fail at their connection points, all those columns will just keep on standing because there is no interdependence among those columns and beams. Yeah, right.

Heiwa, you must be yanking our chains here. Nobody could seriously claim to be an engineer or construction expert at any level, and be stupid enough to actually believe all that crap you just wrote. Nifty hunk of satire, though! :)

You are 100% right that when building a tower you start with the primary and secondary structure and then add the tertiary structure at the end. If a fire occurs and affects the tertiary structure, evidently the primary and secondary structure are unaffected unless the fire also damages them. The question is only how? The loss of tertiary components cannot damage them, as suggested by NIST in the WTC7 report. They make a lot of noise about the tertiary structure, floor elements fitted last at construction, being damaged by fire, but they cannot destroy the more solid secondary and primary structure. Anyway, NIST has asked for comments and I look forward to their reply in due course.

Thanks for your interest in this matter.
 
It is absurd to think that a computer simulation of an event as chaotic as the collapse of WTC1&2 would end up precisly the same as it did in actuality. There isn't enough memory or computational power on the planet yet.

But LS-DYNA just does it. Regardless, I am not really interested in that! I am just interested in the small failures (caused by fire) that caused further failures, until a failure occured (still by fire) - that enabled gravity forces to destroy the complete building. This last failure is the proximate cause of the collapse ... so let's find it out.

Between you and me, I do not believe that small, local failures caused by fire will produce one final failure that causes collapse of the whole tower.

The NIST analysis method is very strange; they start with a small 16 floors FEA model and by simulation it is locally damaged but does not collapse. Then they copy/paste that data into a bigger FEA model ... that collapses. One question you should ask is, e.g. what data was copy/pasted? Some extra failure, that caused collapse.
It is quite simple - only one failure causes collapse. So let's find out what is was.
 
(my bolding)



What NIST has done here is shown a collapse mechanism. It may or may not be the collapse mechanism. It seems to fit the limited photographic of the collapse fairly well however.

How can this collapse mechanism be "grounded in tangible, physical reality" to your satisfaction?

When it is confirmed by studying the physical remains of the building.
 
Jihad Jane, do your own homework. The information you request is available all over this site, at NIST, and elsewhere.

As far as I know NIST has not opened its photographic/video archives to the public. Nor is the precise software and data used to develop their various models publicly available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with specific information, please, rather than generalisations.

In general, it is evident that she/ he lacks technical expertise and is trying to claim that doesn't matter. That old canard; "if I don't know it, it doesn't count." Reality doesn't work that way.

According to NIST all the steel evidence from WTC 7 was destroyed. It may be convenient to wash over this shocking fact and disappear into a mathematical bubble instead, but it means that the WTC 7 "mystery" can never be solved. It will always be conjecture. I haven't seen anyone dispute this on this site. Demonstrating US State complicity in the 911 attacks is not dependent on demolition hypotheses proving correct.

Just another troll with too much time on her/ his hands, and too little in the way of social interaction outside of a keyboard.

Is this an example of a carefully developed, scientific hypothesis?
 
When it is confirmed by studying the physical remains of the building.

This is a good example of the truther evasiveness I commented on in another thread, as exhibited in discussions of the wreckage from flight 93: pick an item of evidence that you are aware cannot be studied, then claim that a study of that specific piece of physical evidence is the only thing that will falsify your beliefs. Are there any other things you know you can't have that you'd like to demand while you're here?

Dave
 
According to NIST all the steel evidence from WTC 7 was destroyed. It may be convenient to wash over this shocking fact and disappear into a mathematical bubble instead, but it means that the WTC 7 "mystery" can never be solved. It will always be conjecture. I haven't seen anyone dispute this on this site.

Positing this rather extreme over-statement to be true, wouldn't your time therefore be better spent discussing something else? After all, given that

Demonstrating US State complicity in the 911 attacks is not dependent on demolition hypotheses proving correct.

it's neither possible nor necessary for you to use it to support your case.

Dave
 
"How can this collapse mechanism be "grounded in tangible, physical reality" to your satisfaction?"

When it is confirmed by studying the physical remains of the building.

The outer core of The Earth is believed to consist of molten iron and nickel. Would you feel free to dispute this this on the grounds that nobody has ever been down there to take samples?
 
Invisible elephants

This is a good example of the truther evasiveness I commented on in another thread, as exhibited in discussions of the wreckage from flight 93: pick an item of evidence that you are aware cannot be studied, then claim that a study of that specific piece of physical evidence is the only thing that will falsify your beliefs. Are there any other things you know you can't have that you'd like to demand while you're here?

Dave


The wholesale removal and destruction of the physical WTC 7 evidence is not a tiny "item of evidence". It is unprecedented in fire/engineering history. Without physical evidence, fire and/or engineering investigations are doomed forever to inconclusive theorising .

As you probably know, it was pointed out, early on in the WTC evidence destruction process, what the result would be:

"...the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals."

Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor-in-chief, Jan 2002:

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/article_display.html?id=131225

I imagine you are also familiar with these words from Manning's editorial demand that the destruction and removal of evidence to "stop immediately":

"For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car.

Such destruction of evidence shows the astounding ignorance of government officials to the value of a thorough, scientific investigation of the largest fire-induced collapse in world history. I have combed through our national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, but nowhere in it does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for buildings over 10 stories tall."

Manning was not indulging in "truther evasiveness".
 
The wholesale removal and destruction of the physical WTC 7 evidence is not a tiny "item of evidence". It is unprecedented in fire/engineering history. Without physical evidence, fire and/or engineering investigations are doomed forever to inconclusive theorising.

This is merely your, admittedly uninformed, opinion. You're trying to turn this into a black-and-white question: with physical evidence, the collapse mode is completely known, and without, it is completely unknown. That's an unrealistic view, and it's the basis of your evasiveness: you claim, by extrapolation from the fact that some things are unknown, that everything is unknown.

In the real world, there are some very clear, wide-ranging conclusions that can be drawn from the available evidence, documentary, testimonial, inferential and circumstantial. For example, it can be determined unambiguously that the collapse of WTC7 was not initiated by explosives, that core columns 79-81 were the first vertical members to fail, and that the collapse duration was not indicative of widespread pre-weakening of the structure. It can be determined with reasonable certainty that no large volumes of solidified, previously molten steel were present in the rubble pile, from the fact that there is no record of such items being removed and no witness testimony referring to what would have been a highly unusual find. Therefore, the evidence is strongly against any form of device being used to bring about WTC7's collapse. However, by insisting on an unreasonable burden of proof, you're claiming that there is still room for doubt. This is truther obfuscation 101; it's not the action of someone who's trying to determine what happened, it's that of a prejudiced idealogue trying to convert others to a non-evidence based point of view.

We don't know, and will never know, everything about the collapse of WTC7. That would be the case however much steel had been preserved for study; the truth movement has rejected the WTC1 and 2 NIST report despite NIST having been fully satisfied with the steel samples available from those buildings. Your lie by implication is to claim that this means we know nothing about it.

Dave
 
I have combed through our national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, but nowhere in it does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for buildings over 10 stories tall."

One does not need an exemption from something that is a guide, advisory and designed to assist fire investigators. It is not a standard or a law or compulsory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_921

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=921

Epic fail again. Stop repeating other stupid truthers false claims.
 
How to eat an egg (see Johnathon Swift)

According to NIST all the steel evidence from WTC 7 was destroyed. It may be convenient to wash over this shocking fact and disappear into a mathematical bubble instead, but it means that the WTC 7 "mystery" can never be solved. It will always be conjecture. I haven't seen anyone dispute this on this site.


Positing this rather extreme over-statement to be true [Why do you call this an "extreme over-statement"? - JJ], wouldn't your time therefore be better spent discussing something else? After all, given that


Demonstrating US State complicity in the 911 attacks is not dependent on demolition hypotheses proving correct.


it's neither possible nor necessary for you to use it to support your case.


Thanks for the time management suggestion. I am very happy with how I am spending my time!

Part of my "case" is pointing out that, for "Debunkers" and "Truthers" alike, evidence arising from the physical destruction of WTC evidence will always be very weak and, moreover, irrelevant to proving whether or not the Osama bin Laden/19 hijacker conspiracy theory is correct. Both tribes may be wasting their time, though in an intellectually stimulating and glamourous way!

We await Colin Powell's promised White Paper evidence in support of the latter, unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom