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Why use Monster as the reference cable?

In other words, I agree with Randi when he says his challenge is for speaker wire only, not for speaker wire that includes circuit-correcting components like Zobel networks.

Hmmm...that's a shame, given that Mike Lavigne already owns those cables. It would have been easier to proceed with the test if those cables were acceptable. In your view there's no series of tests that the cables could pass that would say "o.k., there's no reason to assume that these cables will induce a measurable (audible) distortion in the sound"?

And speaking of Mike Lavigne--where's he gone? I hope that if his tests are negative he won't just disappear.
 
One of the things that knackers the performance of home audio systems is your super-duper amplifier(s) with a flat frequency response from 1Hz to 200kHz and 0.0001% distortion, is driving speakers with a frequency response specified to +-1dB or worse and a distortion of 1% or higher. Add in room resonances and reflections and the cable in-between the amplifier and speaker is of virtually no consequence. 13A Mains flex is just as good as any "Audio-Grade" cable, and a LOT less expensive.

If the bi-wired speakers were also bi-amped, then it (in theory) could make a big difference to the performance, since the passive crossover networks in the speakers can be removed and the range of frequencies sent to each speaker split by low-level (i.e. more accurate) electronic circuitry before the power-amplifiers. It would also permit the low-frequency driver to be driven closed-loop, using motional feedback to correct for non-linearities.


I'm way out of my depth here, so I'll probably have to bow out. Except to say that the amp is a Linn Majik integrated amplifier.

With the move, I've changed the room (obviously!), and the speaker stands (in fact the speakers are currently just sitting on a couple of tables, as I haven't bothered to fix the wall-mounted speaker stands yet), and the speaker cable. That's all. Before I changed the cable I did give it a whirl in the new room with the old cable (one of the speakers was about a foot further forward than it should have been because of the cable length problem, that's all), and I wasn't exactly blown away.

I only bought the Bose cable because the Linn stuff wouldn't go the distance. I didn't have any thoughts that there was a problem with the cable, and there bloody well shouldn't have been considering how robust it was. And the Linn cable itself was hifi quality.

But now! I just played Radio 3 with some Mahler, and it was freaking wonderful. My mother noticed it too.

What the rule-10 is going on?

Rolfe.
 
I only bought the Bose cable because the Linn stuff wouldn't go the distance. I didn't have any thoughts that there was a problem with the cable, and there bloody well shouldn't have been considering how robust it was. And the Linn cable itself was hifi quality.

But now! I just played Radio 3 with some Mahler, and it was freaking wonderful. My mother noticed it too.

What the rule-10 is going on?

Rolfe.

The problem is that we know for a fact that people are capable of being convinced that there are striking differences in sound between system A and system B even when there are demonstrably no differences at all. The thing about ABX testing that the "subjectivists" never acknowledge is that when subjectivists take them (as happens only rarely) they don't say "oh, I can't hear a difference--something about rapid back and forth comparison is blocking my ability to enjoy the music" they say "yes, system A is clearly and utterly different from system B; this test is a doddle!" It's only after the results are presented to them and they realize that they scored randomly that they start to post-hoc theories about why ABX testing is evil.

People convince themselves that the sound of a CD is changed utterly by drawing around the rim with a green marker. Aural perception is strongly colored by emotions, expectations, anxieties etc. Your subjective testimony is interesting, but not a usable datum.
 
I'm way out of my depth here, so I'll probably have to bow out. Except to say that the amp is a Linn Majik integrated amplifier.

With the move, I've changed the room (obviously!), and the speaker stands (in fact the speakers are currently just sitting on a couple of tables, as I haven't bothered to fix the wall-mounted speaker stands yet), and the speaker cable. That's all. Before I changed the cable I did give it a whirl in the new room with the old cable (one of the speakers was about a foot further forward than it should have been because of the cable length problem, that's all), and I wasn't exactly blown away.

I only bought the Bose cable because the Linn stuff wouldn't go the distance. I didn't have any thoughts that there was a problem with the cable, and there bloody well shouldn't have been considering how robust it was. And the Linn cable itself was hifi quality.

But now! I just played Radio 3 with some Mahler, and it was freaking wonderful. My mother noticed it too.

What the rule-10 is going on?

Rolfe.

It's probably an effect of the flu jabs you've both had.;)
 
The problem is that we know for a fact that people are capable of being convinced that there are striking differences in sound between system A and system B even when there are demonstrably no differences at all. The thing about ABX testing that the "subjectivists" never acknowledge is that when subjectivists take them (as happens only rarely) they don't say "oh, I can't hear a difference--something about rapid back and forth comparison is blocking my ability to enjoy the music" they say "yes, system A is clearly and utterly different from system B; this test is a doddle!" It's only after the results are presented to them and they realize that they scored randomly that they start to post-hoc theories about why ABX testing is evil.

People convince themselves that the sound of a CD is changed utterly by drawing around the rim with a green marker. Aural perception is strongly colored by emotions, expectations, anxieties etc. Your subjective testimony is interesting, but not a usable datum.


Oh, sure. But most of that is because of expectations. Tell someone that sticking a little latex spot on a corner of a speaker will improve the sound, and charge him enough money for it, and he'll declare it's a miracle.

But I was expecting nothing. I'd been vaguely unhappy with my system's performance, especially the turntable, for a while. Before I wired up the new speakers I was fingering a Linn brochure I'd brought from the shop which was touting overhauls and upgrades for the Sondek, and wondering if I should consider that. I only bought the new speaker cables because the old ones wouldn't fit the new room. Improvement in the sound was the last thing on my mind. Remember, I'm so unconvinced by the wonders of glitzy cables that I was perfectly prepared to let them convert the speakers back to single wiring, and wouldn't have expected any noticeable deterioration if I'd done that.

I just put it all together being thankful that at least the new cables were the right length, and was pretty startled by the result.

Rolfe.
 
Oh, sure. But most of that is because of expectations. Tell someone that sticking a little latex spot on a corner of a speaker will improve the sound, and charge him enough money for it, and he'll declare it's a miracle.

But I was expecting nothing. I'd been vaguely unhappy with my system's performance, especially the turntable, for a while. Before I wired up the new speakers I was fingering a Linn brochure I'd brought from the shop which was touting overhauls and upgrades for the Sondek, and wondering if I should consider that. I only bought the new speaker cables because the old ones wouldn't fit the new room. Improvement in the sound was the last thing on my mind. Remember, I'm so unconvinced by the wonders of glitzy cables that I was perfectly prepared to let them convert the speakers back to single wiring, and wouldn't have expected any noticeable deterioration if I'd done that.

I just put it all together being thankful that at least the new cables were the right length, and was pretty startled by the result.

Rolfe.

Can you explain what you thought the differences were in the sound?

My guess: £116. But at least you know how the patient of a homeopath feels now.
 
Oh, sure. But most of that is because of expectations. Tell someone that sticking a little latex spot on a corner of a speaker will improve the sound, and charge him enough money for it, and he'll declare it's a miracle.

But I was expecting nothing. I'd been vaguely unhappy with my system's performance, especially the turntable, for a while. Before I wired up the new speakers I was fingering a Linn brochure I'd brought from the shop which was touting overhauls and upgrades for the Sondek, and wondering if I should consider that. I only bought the new speaker cables because the old ones wouldn't fit the new room. Improvement in the sound was the last thing on my mind. Remember, I'm so unconvinced by the wonders of glitzy cables that I was perfectly prepared to let them convert the speakers back to single wiring, and wouldn't have expected any noticeable deterioration if I'd done that.

I just put it all together being thankful that at least the new cables were the right length, and was pretty startled by the result.

Rolfe.

Well--that's why I say that your testimony is interesting. It could be, of course, that the change made a real and audible difference (who knows--perhaps there was some flaw in the old wires, perhaps some flaw in the way they were connected etc. etc.). It's also possible that while you weren't consciously expecting a difference you were unconsciously hoping for one. It's also possible that it is something as mundane as having not had the thing playing for a while made you exaggerate in your mind your dissatisfaction with the sound, so that by contrast with your expectations it suddenly blew you away. There's no doubt that different placement of speakers in a room can contribute enormously to aural differences--and being able to place the speakers differently was one of the main reasons for the cable change, right?

Or, it could be all in the cables themselves: but to test that you'd need to set up a blind test--which would be difficult, I imagine, with your set up. Still, possibly worth a go if it might lead to the MDC.
 
Can you explain what you thought the differences were in the sound?

My guess: £116. But at least you know how the patient of a homeopath feels now.


Ivor, the £116 seemed to me expensive, but I paid it to end the hassle of not being able to get the audio system working properly in the new house - thick black sugarally hawsers cluttering the place up, and one speaker sitting in an inconvenient place, were not a permanent proposition. I didn't pay it in any expectation of a better sound. (If I'd back-converted the speakers and returned to single wiring I might have been half-expecting a poorer sound, but I didn't - the new cables retained the biwiring configuration of the old ones.) I can't remember now what the Linn cables cost, but they weren't cheap either.

I can't explain the nature of the difference. Just - my ideal would be for my system to sound like St. John's, Smith Square, at an actual concert. Or even better, the Bayreuth Festspielhaus. Not going to happen. But the system now seems to be closer than it was before, and further away from the portable tranny.

Well--that's why I say that your testimony is interesting. It could be, of course, that the change made a real and audible difference (who knows--perhaps there was some flaw in the old wires, perhaps some flaw in the way they were connected etc. etc.). It's also possible that while you weren't consciously expecting a difference you were unconsciously hoping for one. It's also possible that it is something as mundane as having not had the thing playing for a while made you exaggerate in your mind your dissatisfaction with the sound, so that by contrast with your expectations it suddenly blew you away. There's no doubt that different placement of speakers in a room can contribute enormously to aural differences--and being able to place the speakers differently was one of the main reasons for the cable change, right?

Or, it could be all in the cables themselves: but to test that you'd need to set up a blind test--which would be difficult, I imagine, with your set up. Still, possibly worth a go if it might lead to the MDC.


If the improvement had been simply a comparison between the old house and the new one, I wouldn't necessarily have been all that surprised. One way and another it had been nearly a year since I left the old house. who knows how many explanations for things being different might have been found. Speaker placement in particular.

However, I'd tried the system in the new house with the old cables. The only difference was that the right-hand speaker was about a foot or two further forward than it should have been, due to the length of the cable. And I was fairly underwhelmed by the sound quality, just not particularly surprised.

In fact, speaker placement isn't that different. One on either side of the fireplace, about the same distance apart in both houses. The reason the old cable wasn't long enough was simply that in the old house the gas fire was wall-mounted without a hearth, and the cable ran neatly along the skirting board, while in the new house there is not only a marble hearth protruding into the room but a chimney breast about 18" deep as well, and the Linn cable was not only too short but too inflexible to run neatly round this.

So the main differences are that the speakers now have a chunk of masonry sticking out of the wall between them (while before the wall was flush), and as I haven't yet bothered to fit the wall-mounted speaker stands they are just sitting on a couple of low tables - same distance from the wall, as they're intended to be wall mounted, but a little lower.

The tables were constant between the recent test with the old speakers and the new setup, but the chunk of masonry wasn't entirely - as I said, because the cable was short, one speaker was positioned forward, in front of the line of the chimney breast.

I'm doubtful that the presence of the chimney breast between the speakers is capable of having a strikingly positive effect on sound quality - especially as I was still struck by the sound quality last night when I turned on Radio 3 at my mother's request - as it happened, she was sitting in the optimum listening seat, while I was in a bad position, much closer to one speaker than the other. But I still thought, wow, that's terrific.

The tables, rather than the speaker stands? Well, let's just say I'm not rushing to screw the speaker stands to the wall. However, when I tried the system in the new house with the old cables, the speakers were on the tables, and I wasn't impressed.

I think it's more likely that there was some sort of fault with the Linn cables. I just don't know what it could have been, given that nothing seemed to be broken and they were apparently very robust. But since I threw them away when I bought the new ones, who knows - and further testing isn't going to happen either, for that reason.

Just a final thought. Supposing they'd been plugged in wrongly before, with the treble output connected to the bass and vice versa, on one or both speakers? I'd be dubious about the possibility, but who knows - it's a long time since I wired the system up in the old house, and when I threw it together in the new house originally, perhaps I wasn't as careful as all that. (I was certainly careful when fitting the new cable.) Could that have made a noticeable difference, caused poor sound reproduction? I could reproduce that simply by switching the banana plugs round with the system as it is. Might be worth a try, just to satisfy my curiosity.

Rolfe.
 
I've three thoughts on what may cause the apparent difference (other than a previously faulty cable):

1) Don't rule out moving speakers by small amounts making perceptible differences, especially when they are near corners of a room.

2) If the connections for each speaker can be connected back-to-front, it could be possible the drive units were operating in anti-phase.

3) The radio broadcast may have been especially good compared to what you are used to.
 
I think (blushing madly) that 2 is possible. I was particularly careful when connecting the new cables, and I know they're now right. I wasn't especially carfeul when I just threw the system together at the beginning of the month, with the old cables, and there may be a fair chance they were wrong then. Were they wrong in the old house? I can't say, now. It's so long since I wired them up. I'd have thought I would have been careful, but it's possible I made a mistake right at the beginning and didn't realise it - a half-turn in a cable can go unnoticed. This could have been the explanation for the unsatisfactory sound I've been conscious of for a while.

I'll have a try at the weekend, by deliberately swapping the connectors on the Bose cables, and see what happens.

(The speakers aren't near the corners of the room either now or previously, and I don't think it's that. I first noticed the difference with the turntable, not the tuner, and Radio 3 is generally high quality anyway. I wanted to see how the CD player sounded, but unfortunately that seems to be kaput, my next problem.)

Rolfe.
 
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That would be Mike's current system. Is there another system discussed in this thread where a cable test is taking place?

I didn't know if Randi had agreed to test Mike at his own home with his own system. My intention is to determine what test conditions are appropriate for the challenge so if Mike has a strange amp that is sensitive to speaker wire impedance, it shouldn't be used in the challenge.

Some time ago, I ran some speaker wire simulations and I used an amplifier impedance of 1.0 ohms. I used the large value because it makes frequency response more sensitive to speaker wire impedance, so this is a conservative approach. The simulation predicted that normal speaker wire would cause no audible signal even with this large impedance. However, if the test amplifier has a very high output impedance and the test speakers have a large amount of reactance, it might be possible for speaker wire to have an effect. The wire would need to have a lot of inductance/capacitance and I think there are some designs out there that could cause audible signal degradation under these extreme conditions. Since audiophile equipment is not designed according to standard engineering practices, it just might be possible to find components that are bad enough to make this happen.

Of course, this assumes that audiophiles like systems that sound 'worse'. I think it is interesting that they believe switching relays will cause signal degradation but they don't seem to mind the signal degradation caused by the high output impedance of their very expensive amplifiers. A good power relay can have a contact resistance of 0.01 ohms, which is insignificant when compared to the output impedance of Mike's amplifiers, but I guess if you can't 'see' the added impedance in your signal path, you won't 'hear' it either.
 
Switched connections could certainly account for the problem (and it's "solution"!). But I wouldn't automatically rule out a psychological effect. Let me tell a tale against myself here: I remember the first time I played an SACD of something that I also have the CD version of. I was blown away by the sound. It thought: "wow, I'm hearing all kinds of stuff here that I just never heard before!" It seemed like a revelation. Then I played the CD--and realized that it was all there on the CD--I was just listening with a particular intensity to the SACD which made me attribute qualities to the sound that were purely the result of my mental state.

Now, as you can tell I'm something of an audio skeptic, so you can be sure that I didn't play the SACD thinking "this will certainly sound different from the CD!" It was simply a matter of paying particular attention that created a false "aura" for the SACD. (And since then I've read of double-blind studies that show pretty conclusively that there is no audible difference between SACD and CD, unless the SACD is remastered.)
 
Switched connections could certainly account for the problem (and it's "solution"!). But I wouldn't automatically rule out a psychological effect. Let me tell a tale against myself here: I remember the first time I played an SACD of something that I also have the CD version of. I was blown away by the sound. It thought: "wow, I'm hearing all kinds of stuff here that I just never heard before!" It seemed like a revelation. Then I played the CD--and realized that it was all there on the CD--I was just listening with a particular intensity to the SACD which made me attribute qualities to the sound that were purely the result of my mental state.

Now, as you can tell I'm something of an audio skeptic, so you can be sure that I didn't play the SACD thinking "this will certainly sound different from the CD!" It was simply a matter of paying particular attention that created a false "aura" for the SACD. (And since then I've read of double-blind studies that show pretty conclusively that there is no audible difference between SACD and CD, unless the SACD is remastered.
Thanks, and it sounds good to me.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
By the way: here's a great example of a well-conducted ABX test in which the participants indicate (before they become aware of the results) that they were entirely satisfied with the test conditions. And here is a truly lamentable follow up (you have to read down a little: search, ironically, for "reality check") in which the writer of the original article tells us that after the ABX test he and some friends gathered together to listen to the same power cables in a non-blinded (and non-comparative) test and convinced themselves all over again that they were worth every penny of the $2500 asking price.

Yes folks--$2500, not for speaker cables but for the power cables that plug into the amp etc. Truly, the human mind has an endless capacity for self-delusion.
 
Switched connections could certainly account for the problem (and it's "solution"!). But I wouldn't automatically rule out a psychological effect. ....


I think we have a reasonable working hypothesis, at least. [Looks around for the embarrassment smilie....] :o

I switched the connections on the Bose cables.

It's really quite difficult when you're actually listening for something. (That's why I was so struck by what happened when I listened first with the Bose cables - I wasn't listening for anything, I just switched on the radio and thought, oh wow man.) When I switched one speaker only it was hard to be sure anything major had happened. The un-tampered-with speaker still sounded fine, and by concentrating on it, I could persuade myself things were OK. Ah, the perils of absence of blinding! However, when I switched that one too, there was no doubt about it. The sound wasn't good. I find it difficult to describe differences in recorded sound quality (as opposed to vocal or instrumental technique), but the sound was muddled, and the clear separation of the instrument groups had gone. It was closer to the portable tranny than to St. John's Smith Square. I put the connections back where they belonged and hey presto, Purcell as he ought to be listened to.

So we have a very probable explanation for the difference I noted between the Bose cables and the recent test in the new house with the Linn cables. When I did that, I knew that the cables wouldn't fit and would have to be replaced. I was more interested in checking that the new roof FM aerial was working properly, and that the components had survived the removal, than soaking up a concert. I really didn't take time to be sure the speaker cables were properly connected. So the chances are that one of them was wrong, and it's possible that both of them were wrong. So, I then came home with the Bose cables, and knowing that this time it was for keeps I took care to get the connections right, and hey wow man.

Were they wrong in the old house? I'll never know now, but I'm beginning to think they might well have been. Otherwise, I think I'd have noticed something wrong when I first checked the system in the new house with (presumably) the speakers wired more or less wrongly, instead of just thinking, situation normal, I need to think about an upgrade.

If I've been sitting for years in the old house, thinking "this system really doesn't sound as good as I'd expect a mainly-Linn system to sound, even allowing for the turntable being second-hand," and all because I'd made a careless mistake at some point when connecting the speaker cables, then just shoot me now. But I rather suspect that's what's been going on.

Can any of you gurus tell me whether biwiring as such is actually worth doing? I didn't have any of this trouble when I wired up my mother's system for her in her own room. Her speakers are single wired, with only two connectors at each end of the cable, and it's impossible to get it wrong. It's clear that with biwiring, getting it wrong significantly worsens the sound. However, assuming you get it right, does the biwiring sound appreciably better than the same speakers single wired, or is this just another bit of audio woo?

[Hey, $2,500 for power cables??!! I don't care what they imagined the difference in the sound was, I don't see how that could be worth it. Dammit, you could get the Amadeus Quartet to come and play in your living room for that!]

Rolfe.
 
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I can see no advantage to biwiring if the drive units in each speaker still use passive crossovers and both are driven by a single power amplifier channel. Cables and connectors do not introduce distortion.

If the drive units in each speaker were driven by a separate power amplifier channel (so for a 2 drive-unit per speaker stereo system, 4 power amplifier channels are required), then it is possible to make some improvements. I'm not sure they would be audible, though. Usually the passive crossovers in the speakers would be removed if this was done.
 
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Thought so.

So, it just introduces the opportunity to make it worse by doing something stupid.

Rolfe.
 
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