Why the Persistent Disassociation?

[Tailgater]

BTW, Can someone explain to me how identifing a person's self-described race equalsDisassociation?

Exactly what I said and exactly what I mean.

Don't you get it? I don't think that bridge has been built yet.

 

[Edges]

IMO, the best thing for this country is when more people have to check off "other" under race to the point it is irrelevant.

Exactly. I'm amazed that there are still some surveys out there that say "pick one" under race and don't have an "other" or "multi-racial" category.

It's funny, both my sister and I get mistaken for hispanic although in my sister's case it's under the caucasian hispanic category. At what point, when we start splitting hairs like that, do we finally throw our hands up in the air and realize that its irrelevant to know the particulars?


And I think I see your point about his wife.

 

[Radrook]

Originally Posted by joobz
BTW, Can someone explain to me how identifing a person's self-described race equalsDisassociation?

Self described? He just recently compared himself to a mutt when talking about choosing a pet dog for his daughter. Just a way of reminding us what he really thinks, I suppose. Or maybe just a slip of the tongue as you would probably suggest? There's a difference between what a politician will say for expediency and what he really feels and to me that pretty well sums up how he really feels. Now you can take that and run with it.

What I'm trying to say and all I am trying to say it that people shouldn't feel they are forced to categorize themselves in a certain way just because PEOPLE want them to. Especially when the categorization forces you to completely ignore one side of your heritage. Neither do I agree with perpetuating a custom and practice that has its roots in racism as the one-drop blood idiocy does. You you do. OK But I don't.

 

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by joobz


Self described? He just recently compared himself to a mutt when talking about choosing a as a pet dog for his daughter. Just a way of reminding us what he really thinks, I suppose. Or maybe just a slip of the tongue as you would probably suggest? There's a difference between what a politician will say for expediency and what he really feels and to me that pretty well sums up how he really feels. Now you can take that and run with it.

What I'm trying to say and all I am trying to say it that people shouldn't feel they are forced to categorize themselves in a certain way just because PEOPLE want them to. Especially when the categorization forces you to completely ignore one side of your heritage. Neither do I agree with perpetuating a custom and practice that has its roots in racism as the one-drop blood idiocy does. You you do. OK But I don't.

Obama is smart enough to have......a sense of humor.

And to use......irony.

 

[Radrook]

There is no definition of black...and most "black" people in the United States are actually a significant mix of African and European. Why do you think there's so much variation in skin shade?

The "one-drop rule," the "can you get a cab" rule, or the "could you walk around in the 18th Century South without getting apprehended" rules are probably as good as it gets. And Obama is black by all of them...

I should point out also that we have our first black First Lady, which can't be redefined by any stretch, and a black first family with black children.

And his white side is obliterated because you conveniently prefer it that way? Sorry but I just don't see the logic in your argument. A half white half black person is a mulatto. Which simply means that he has one black parent and one white parent. You act as if he has just one parent which is racist by any standard.

As for social treatment transforming a person into a particular race. That's ridiculous. I suppose that if a white person is treated like a black person he becomes black. Or if a Chinese person is treated like a Caucasian he becomes one. Your premise if defective.


I think it's highly disrespectful to say that Obama has to ignore his Mom's genetic heritage in view of the fact that she and her parents, his grandparents, put in so much effort to make him a success when his African father took off for the hills and left him to fend for himself. That's where the real credit lies by any standard.

"I think the term "A man of color" is far more appropriate.

BTW
I agree that the First Lady is black. However, her kids, who have two white grandparents, are one-fourth white and it definitely shows in their case.

 

[Radrook]

Don't you get it? I don't think that bridge has been built yet.

"Hey Joe?"

"Ummm yeah?"

"Why don't they build a bridge ove that river? It would help!"

"Ummm, don't you get it?"

"Get what?"

"Ummm, that bridge hasn't been built yet!"

 

[Radrook]

I understand what you are saying, but in focusing on the negative you are leaving the fact that most people are proud of this in a positive way. Pointing out how racists in the minority consider the one drop rule is redundant.

The one drop rule is adopted by a minority but the whole nation considers him black because of the one drop rule! Now that's the mother of all self-contradictions!

I also don't agree that blacks have been socially conditioned by whites to have a similar mentality.

That's what USA history tells us agree with it or not.

Mixed races have always been "shunned" or made to feel not part of the group by any side. Call it the ugly duckling story or the runt of the litter mentality, but it is hardly from conditioning from another group. Mixed individuals have also taken alot of alienation from the minority race as well. I'm sure you can find simliar examples all over the world between all races, religions, cultures, classes, intelligence, looks, etc. All these groups have a minority that have some form of the one drop rule. People who have beliefs in purity and superiority. This being the norm is quickly fading in this country. There is too much diversity for one group to claim it without being laughed out of the mainstream.

Never said otherrwise.

Who's feelings have been hurt by Obama being embraced as the first black president? Whites and blacks are overwhelmingly proud of having any amount of black in the White House as a sign of progress. That's the buzz.

I didn't say that people's feelings are hurt because he is president. Obviously the vast majority of Americans are elated.

Coming out claiming that whites are not embracing his whiteness enough is the kill....and borderline racist in itself. For a white to come out and say, "We have our first half black/half white president. We are on our way to having a black president." is just a joke. There is no other way to look at it other than in the most positive light to heal racism.

No other way but yours! Very democratic.

Embracing enough? That's the understatement of the century! They are simply doing what they have been doing all along-mindlessly going by the racist one-drop rule. Are you familiar with the sordid history of that rule? How much pain and suffering was inflicted by using that rule? Why thsat rule was put into effect in the first place?

Just because there is an element of truth to something, doesn't mean we have to embrace it as a whole truth and use it to push a negative premise.

Another understatement! Just an element? Gee, well, if you say so. OK. Push a negative what? How about the racist one-drop blood negative premise? But that of course doesn't count-does it?

 

[Oliver]

I miss the point of the OP. Is it the same as asking "why are
Black People genetically associating with the President elect"
so much?

 

[calebprime]

Radrook is saying something.

And he's using logic.

That much, I understand.

 

[EGarrett]

And his white side is obliterated because you conveniently prefer it that way?

When did I say that?

Sorry but I just don't see the logic in your argument. A half white half black person is a mulatto. Which simply means that he has one black parent and one white parent. You act as if he has just one parent which is racist by any standard.

As for social treatment transforming a person into a particular race. That's ridiculous. I suppose that if a white person is treated like a black person he becomes black. Or if a Chinese person is treated like a Caucasian he becomes one. Your premise if defective.

I think it's highly disrespectful to say that Obama has to ignore his Mom's genetic heritage in view of the fact that she and her parents, his grandparents, put in so much effort to make him a success when his African father took off for the hills and left him to fend for himself. That's where the real credit lies by any standard.

"I think the term "A man of color" is far more appropriate.

BTW
I agree that the First Lady is black. However, her kids, who have two white grandparents, are one-fourth white and it definitely shows in their case.

Define "white" and "black."

 

[ponderingturtle]

BTW I'm a little confused as to what marrying a black woman has anything to do with the community Obama identifies with, especially in the context that I am engaged to a white man. I don't think that anyone would say that I am white because of that or that I identify more with my white ancestry because of the man I fell in love with. Other than that, I agree with the other reasons people have given for his being identified as black.

You are right that it is not a good indicator, but combined with his church and general embracing the black comunity it adds more weight to his self identifying with black as a culture.

But really the idea of race is all cultural, when did southern europeans and the irish, and slavic people become white?

Race is real as a cultural artifact, and as such it does not need to comply strictly with facts.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And his white side is obliterated because you conveniently prefer it that way? Sorry but I just don't see the logic in your argument. A half white half black person is a mulatto. Which simply means that he has one black parent and one white parent. You act as if he has just one parent which is racist by any standard. .

Why does this obsess you?

Race is a purely cultural artifact. When people look at him they see him as a black man, and he certainly seems to concider himself as a black man.

If someone has 50% of their ancestors from a 1000 years ago in europe and 50% in sub saharan africa, but for the past 150 years they all identified as black in america, are they black or not?

All their immidiate ancestors would have been identified as black inspite of racial mixing longer ago.

 

[billydkid]

Why are whites so hell-bent on totally disassociating themselves genetically from Obama by repeatedly and invariably referring to him as black and an Afro American? Please forgive my question if it comes across as offensive. It isn't meant to be that way.
I'm simply interested in your explanations.

BTW

He's the product of TWO not one. Shunting him aside like that as if his white side doesn't exist can come accross as an insult. Not that race is the important thing. But if it indeed isn't-then let's at least be fair and decent about it and take what his true feelings might be into consideration by putting ourselves in his place.

Well, for some reason people with any native african blood at all are typically called black. It makes no sense. Obama is just as "white" as he is "black" - not that it matters particularly. Whatever makes people happy is what I am thinking. I remember seeing some talk show with white black people who were complaining that people didn't consider them black. It's all incredibly silly and stupid. Another thing I have noticed - I have worked with a couple people who had racist inclinations, but, strangely, that racism was reserved for American blacks. They held no such feelings about the African blacks they worked with. That tells me that much of the racist feeling in the US is really cultural in origin and has little to do with the actual race of the people involved. I have also found that American black culture - by which I mean the culture that is typically portrayed in the media - was just as foreign to African blacks as it is to many American white people. God, I hope I haven't said anything that someone will ding me for. I am nothing if not an individualist and find notions of race and ethnicity to be nonsensical - something people cling to protect their conceits.

 

[Radrook]

When did I say that?

Doesn't need to be said. Treat him or refer to him as uniracial and one side of his heritage is rendered null.

Define "white" and "black."

According to the one-drop rule it's conveniently anyone with any amount of Black African genetic heritage.

 

[Radrook]

Why does this obsess you?

Why does the one-drop rule obsess YOU?

Race is a purely cultural artifact.

It can be.

When people look at him they see him as a black man, and he certainly seems to consider himself as a black man.

No, he sees himself as a mutt. As for playing the part he might play, that's part of being a politician.

BTW
The program "Moving On Up" or was it: "The Jeffersons" ? contradicts you. It regularly showed Jefferson mockingly referring to mixed-raced persons as "Oreos" and "Zebras."

If someone has 50% of their ancestors from a 1000 years ago in Europe and 50% in sub Saharan Africa, but for the past 150 years they all identified as black in America, are they black or not?

All their immediate ancestors would have been identified as black in spite of racial mixing longer ago.

The problem is that Obama's black ancestors were not of American stock. They never experienced the tragedies that the American black community experienced. That's one of the reasons why the African American community had trouble accepting him at first. They found it hard to view him as truly theirs. They also had trouble with his mixed heritage. Of course once they saw he had a chance then that was all water under bridge.


BTW
Other blacks had trouble accepting him because they considered Hillary a better choice and only shifted over when pressured by the African American community to do so.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Being biracial doesn't come with many perks. One of the few is the right to choose whether to identify yourself primarily as being the same race as the parent you most resemble in terms of visual racial cues or claim your biracial-ness as your primariy identity. And the right to change your mind about it if you're willing to take the consequence that it will upset some people. Obama has chosen to identify primarily as black. For whites to emphasize his biracial heritage would not be respectful of Obama's choice or of the millions who are gladdened by the election of our first black president.

Because of our country's history of oppression, in recent years for most Americans with African heritage it is considered something to be proud of. Even apparently white people often make much of a little African or Native American ancestry. Perhaps it helps a little for someone whose ancestors were primarily oppressors to know they are also descended from the oppressed.

 

[gdnp]

Define "white" and "black."

According to the one-drop rule it's conveniently anyone with any amount of Black African genetic heritage.

Believe it or not, most of us knew what the "one drop rule" was before you informed us. Is that the way you think white and black should be defined? Why?

 

[Radrook]

If indeed true, why all the suspicions, debates, and hesitation in accepring him as black enough prior to his showing he could indeed succeed? Isn't that a bit hipocritical. Also, if indeed he feels as totally black as you prefer he feel, why refer to himself as a mutt? Isn't that a bit weird for a person who feels himself to be totally black to say?

 

[Tricky]

If indeed true, why all the suspicions, debates, and hesitation in accepting him as black enough prior to his showing he could indeed succeed?

Being cautious, I'd say. They'd seen enough Condi Rices and Clarence Thomases to realize that not every black person in politics was actually on their side. Also, the Clintons commanded tremendous loyalty from many blacks, especially in older demographics. They may have not wanted the "young whippersnapper" to pull away all of Hillary's support.

Early in the election cycle, Obama was an unknown commodity. As people got to know him, their position toward him changed. This happens a lot with people who aren't locked into a predetermined mindset.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical.

Depends on how you look at it. Sometimes people change their minds. I've done it a number of times. (For example, I used to be a Christian.) Does that make me a hypocrite? Perhaps in some eyes, but I don't worry too much about commanding the respect of people who would make such intransigent judgments.

Also, if indeed he feels as totally black as you prefer he feel, why refer to himself as a mutt? Isn't that a bit weird for a person who feels himself to be totally black to say?

Who ever said he felt "totally black"? Who ever said they would prefer he did? It is quite well known that Obama has mixed parentage. For him to be able to joke about it shows that he is very comfortable in his skin, whatever color anyone else "prefers" it to be.

You know, a lot of Americans boast proudly of their mixed heritage. Maybe not multiracial, but certainly multicultural.

And now, for my obligatory joke. Let me apologize in advance if there is anyone I fail to offend.
***
The scene is in a London pub where an American tourist is getting irate with one of the locals.

American: Yew damn snooty Yewropeeuns! Yew're so damn smug 'bout yer damn "royal" bloodlines. Well I tell you, I'm proud to say I'm part Irish, part German, part Eyetalyun, part Greek, part Mescan, part Injun, an' part Cajun! Whaddya say 'bout that?

Brit: Very sporting of your mother.

 

[Radrook]

Being cautious, I'd say. They'd seen enough Condi Rices and Clarence Thomases to realize that not every black person in politics was actually on their side. Also, the Clintons commanded tremendous loyalty from many blacks, especially in older demographics. They may have not wanted the "young whippersnapper" to pull away all of Hillary's support.

Early in the election cycle, Obama was an unknown commodity. As people got to know him, their position toward him changed. This happens a lot with people who aren't locked into a predetermined mindset.

All viable explanations except that the suspicions and debating's I'm referring to were not about his political ideas but about his being a genuine African American black due to both his biracial heritage, his African Kenyan non American black heritage, and his offbeat cultural heritage. Suddenly these have become irrelevant because it is politically expedient?

Depends on how you look at it. Sometimes people change their minds. I've done it a number of times. (For example, I used to be a Christian.) Does that make me a hypocrite? Perhaps in some eyes, but I don't worry too much about commanding the respect of people who would make such intransigent judgments.

Actually, I was rather surprised by the reluctance to accept him in the first place in view of the much-vaunted and adhered to one-drop makes you black rule so popular here in the states. On the other hand, there has always been a reluctance to accept black people with a smattering of foreigner within the African American community. So from that angle it was understandable.

True, people change their minds. However, some changes of mind come across as hypocritical and self-serving while others don't.

Who ever said he felt "totally black"? Who ever said they would prefer he did? It is quite well known that Obama has mixed parentage. For him to be able to joke about it shows that he is very comfortable in his skin, whatever color anyone else "prefers" it to be.

No one laughed. Neither was his body language indicative that he was jesting. Calling it a joke is merely a way of keeping the one-drop rule in place so the universe can continue to function as desired and everyone can go about his racist business as usual.

You know, a lot of Americans boast proudly of their mixed heritage. Maybe not multiracial, but certainly multicultural.

And now, for my obligatory joke. Let me apologize in advance if there is anyone I fail to offend.
***
The scene is in a London pub where an American tourist is getting irate with one of the locals.

American: Yew damn snooty Yewropeeuns! Yew're so damn smug 'bout yer damn "royal" bloodlines. Well I tell you, I'm proud to say I'm part Irish, part German, part Eyetalyun, part Greek, part Mescan, part Injun, an' part Cajun! Whaddya say 'bout that?

Brit: Very sporting of your mother.

Good joke. Made me laugh. Thanks!