Why the Arabs Started a War in 1947

[Caustic Logic]

It's simple. To make it rather obvious what was the Arabs' goal in 1947, and what was the real cause of the war.

I'm no expert but I'm guessing they were hoping to nip it in the bud, make the Zionist experiment a failure too quick for it to recover, thus leaving the "Palestinian" Arab peoples living there on their own Terms and the Jews living wherever they could as usual. Any other people in the same position would have done the same, IMO.

 

[Skeptic]

I'm no expert but I'm guessing they were hoping to nip it in the bud, make the Zionist experiment a failure too quick for it to recover, thus leaving the "Palestinian" Arab peoples living there on their own Terms and the Jews living wherever they could as usual. Any other people in the same position would have done the same, IMO.

Quite right. Many other people in the position of having the eeeeeeevil Joooooooooooz live among them tried to genocide the Jews, too, with various levels of success.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Quite right. Many other people in the position of having the eeeeeeevil Joooooooooooz live among them tried to genocide the Jews, too, with various levels of success.

Yep, and after the friggin HOLOCAUST, it was bound to happen again. The holocaust turned the whole world against the Jews, and it was then they really needed a home.

Okay, there were pogroms in the USSR, but Western Europe could as well absorb those who could flee that as well as Israel could. Anyway, I think the danger was over-hyped in the immediate shock after the holocaust was revealed, and it was too strong a medicine with maaaajor side-effects reverberating to this day.

Or just a bunch of irrational anti-Semites all over the world complaining about and plotting against Israel and its friends, and closing in oh my! Real world catching up = evil conspiwacie!

ETA: Oh and come to think of it, the Jews did star the war, by some of the better definitions of "start the war." But that's semantics, right?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You are right about someone seeming hysterical.. but it's not him. What an odd and ironic rant. Take a deep breath.

Screaming, frothing hysteria?

It's too bad you don't take the idea of how certain arguing methods don't help people to your point of view more seriously.

Did you miss where he said he was Pro-Israel?

I'm not getting involved in yet another Israel thread but I had to point this out.

 

[Darth Rotor]

well, one could argue that the Israeli declaration of independence, was in many ways a declaration of war.

Against whom?

the Zionists were very well aware that such a declaration would lead to an all-out Arab attack.

But they risked it anyway.

the Zionists could have instead let the UN deal with the situation, rather then acting unilaterally.

Parky, if you were interested in creating a state of Israel, you don't wait for someone else to do it for you. Herzl's movement, and its history, included some years of asking various Powers to help, and attendant appeals to numerous crowned heads of Europe: Ottoman, Russian, German, (others, I think the French were asked as well). The process of asking others to do it for them demonstrated that nobody had as much interest in the project as the Zionists. The UN had/has even less discretion to act than a given crowned head of Europe, in 1947. Also, the Korean War had not yet happened, so UN "collective action" had yet to be tested. The founders of Israel had not data to work from, in re the UN's effectiveness, or lack thereof. So being The Zionists, no, they (of all people) could not have let someone else do it. It was either them doing it or nobody doing it.

but they seem to have chosen war rather than peace.

Interesting way to phrase that.

DR

 

[Thunder]

Parky, if you were interested in creating a state of Israel, you don't wait for someone else to do it for you.

and yet, the Zionists waited till after the results of the UN Partition Plan to declare independence. seems like they were waiting to see what the UN wanted to do.

 

[Dr Adequate]

You are right about someone seeming hysterical.. but it's not him. What an odd and ironic rant. Take a deep breath.

Screaming, frothing hysteria?

Yes. Too often the pro-Israeli stuff is just screaming, frothing hysteria.

It's too bad you don't take the idea of how certain arguing methods don't help people to your point of view more seriously.

I guess that is, technically, a sentence. It has a verb in it.

 

[Skeptic]

The founders of Israel had not data to work from, in re the UN's effectiveness, or lack thereof.

They did, actually.

All of them, of course, remembered the holocaust, and most of them also numerous previous antisemitic pogroms and expulsions (e.g., those in Russia in 1905, etc.), etc. They realized the Jews might well fail if they depend on themselves, but that they would surely just be obliterated if they depended on others.

Whether the "folks who don't give a tuppence about the lives of millions of Jews" were called "the world", "the UN", or "the league of nations" was of little account.

 

[Skeptic]

the Zionists could have instead let the UN deal with the situation, rather then acting unilaterally

They did. The UN voted for a partition plan and the Jews accepted it. The Arabs rejected it -- just like they did all previous plans -- and decided on a war of annihilation instead.

 

[Skeptic]

ETA: Oh and come to think of it, the Jews did star the war,

Yes, it makes perfect sense for 600,000 Jews to start a war against 100,000,000 Arabs... funny how my grandfather and grandmother, both veterans of Israel's war of independence, had a rather different recollection. You know, about the Arabs declaring they will throw the Jews into the sea the moment the partition plan was announced in Nov. 1947 -- just like they said the same when Rommel was getting close... and in the 1930s... and 20s... and... well, you get the idea.

 

[Doctor Evil]

ETA: Oh and come to think of it, the Jews did star the war, by some of the better definitions of "start the war." But that's semantics, right?

Huh? This does not correspond to the history as I understand it. The Arabs have in fact started the war twice. The first was a civil war following the approval of the Un partition plan in Nov. 1947, and the second was the invasion of Arab armies following the end of the British mandate and the Israeli declaration of independence.

 

[Thunder]

Yes, it makes perfect sense for 600,000 Jews to start a war against 100,000,000 Arabs...

um...600,000 Jews fought against HOW many Arabs in the 1948 War?

lets see if u can get this one right.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Only in 1947? Missed all the previous riots? 1929? 1936? And its not really a civil war.

The earlier riots (or whatever you choose to call them) were not the subject of discussion so I did not see a reason to address them.

Moving on to 1947, historians divide the war into to parts. In the first one, between Dec. 1947 and May 1948, the war was mainly between the local populations. (And yes, I am aware that the Palestinians had outside help, i.e. the Arab Liberation Army.) This is the civil war I was talking about. It was conclusively won by the Jews by May 1948. The second stage of the war is the war with the invading Arab armies following the end of the mandate and the Israeli declaration of independence.

Who cares if its shunned by the British. As if they are the word of reason.

Because the committee sent by the UN had no forces of its own. They needed British help to implement the partition plan. The problem was that the British wanted to be allied with the Arab side, and thus were not interested in the implementation of the plan. All this was just to argue that Parky's point regarding the UN was based on ignorance of the facts. In may 1948 it was clear that the UN had no ability to implement its own decision.

 

[dudalb]

Simple.The Arabs thought they had an easy win.

 

[Skeptic]

H'm. Against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq -- who all invaded the next day to Israel's creation -- and the Palestinians, as well.

Egypt's population at the time -- ca. 20,000,000
Iraq's -- ca. 5,000,000
Jordan -- ca. 1,200,000
Lebanon -- ca. 1,200,000
Syria -- ca. 3,000,000
Palestinians -- ca. 1,000,000

So, my God, you are right! It was only 600,000 Jews vs. about -- officially -- 30,000,000 Arabs.

Merely a 1:50 proportion, a crass exaggeration on my part to make it into 1:100.

Welllllllll, perhaps I should add the Arab world in general, of who which expelled its Jews in retaliation and helped with the war, even if not officially? That would push the population over 100,000,000, but hey, let's not be picky.

 

[Darth Rotor]

In may 1948 it was clear that the UN had no ability to implement its own indecision.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Fixed that for you.

 

[Thunder]

H'm. Against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq -- who all invaded the next day to Israel's creation -- and the Palestinians, as well.

Egypt's population at the time -- ca. 20,000,000
Iraq's -- ca. 5,000,000
Jordan -- ca. 1,200,000
Lebanon -- ca. 1,200,000
Syria -- ca. 3,000,000
Palestinians -- ca. 1,000,000
.

you're being disingenuous. how many troops did the Arabs have? how many soldiers did the Jews have?

 

[The Fool]

you're being disingenuous. how many troops did the Arabs have? how many soldiers did the Jews have?

Parky...the Mythology involved miraculous victory against overwhelming odds. Get with the program.

also...when you want to decide when a war "started" you need to keep counting back to something an Arab did.

 

[Skeptic]

It is disgusting that because the Arabs fought badly, and failed to destroy Israel, somehow this means they didn't declare war or didn't mean to destroy Israel or didn't attack it on three fronts.

That's like saying that you-known-who never really meant to dominate the world because he lost the war, or that the rapist didn't really attempt rape because he hasn't achieved his intended orgasm.

It's another instance of the Jews' very survival being used as "proof" their enemies never really wanted to destroy them.

To satisfy some folks that they were really in danger in 1948, nothing but the Jews' genocide, as per the Arab plan, would have sufficed.