Why so much hatred for feminism?

[Naive1000]

I had no problem getting in to college: I have a genius IQ and easily killed the SAT. Plus, I already had college credits from high school AP classes. My problems were no extracurricular activities as I have problems socializing, but the SATs were high enough it didn't really matter. So, I have no idea what others had to go through, I got accepted right away.

 

[bookitty]

I had no problem getting in to college: I have a genius IQ and easily killed the SAT. Plus, I already had college credits from high school AP classes. My problems were no extracurricular activities as I have problems socializing, but the SATs were high enough it didn't really matter. So, I have no idea what others had to go through, I got accepted right away.

Well, that about sums it up.

 

[Naive1000]

Well, that about sums it up.

That's because of my abilities and not anything else. You have no idea what I've been through in my life and belittling it says more about you than I.

 

[sgtbaker]

I'll agree those are sexism and should be fought against. Though in some cases in can be from experience with other women applicants or high turnaround, but I feel that's highly unlikely. Also same job, same pay, unless she's not doing the job up to the same level: like takes more time to do the same job, moves less amount of total material, generally not pulling her weight, etc.... Sounds like lawsuit material on the pay.

But, I can turn this around with nursing, teaching, daycare, pretty much any job dealing with children, data entry, customer service, sales, etc... (Link). I think all discrimination is bad but it's not a one way street.

Conversely, for men actually in those fields, men report a feeling of being pushed up the ladder.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/hdh9/e-reserves/Williams_-_The_glass_escalator_PDF-1.pdf

 

[tyr_13]

You know that it's 58% women, right? It's not like a 30/70 split. It's 8% above 50/50. And, if anyone bothered reading the article I posted, the numbers are starting to swing back to center.

It was still a poor example to use.

 

[Naive1000]

Conversely, for men actually in those fields, men report a feeling of being pushed up the ladder.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/hdh9/e-reserves/Williams_-_The_glass_escalator_PDF-1.pdf

I already have the research but thank you.

Have you heard of the Apex fallacy or the Glass Cellar?

 

[bookitty]

It was still a poor example to use.

For a discussion of privilege between whites and non-whites? Dude was basically say that, because he was the token white kid in grade school he knows alllll about discrimination by color. I was pointing out that being the odd white person isn't that bad when you've still a much better chance of getting into college and not going to jail.

 

[ConspiRaider]

I recently became a feminist...it took some effort.

As a guy, I found a huge barrier was my understanding of the term "patriarchy". It conjures up images of laughing misogynists chomping on cigars and telling the "little woman" to “get back in the kitchen”. Obviously, that wasn’t ME so I felt unfairly attacked. I also I felt like feminists were intentionally ignoring harmful and pervasive male stereotypes while harping on their own misery. It took a bit of reading on feminist websites to get how wrong I was. People need to understand the modern state of feminism is less about explicit misogyny and more about implicit sexism against women AND men.

Why call it FEMinism? Isn’t that in and of itself, sexist? No. Women have suffered to a greater extent in this environment while men have reaped more of the tangible benefits. On average, men have more money and power than women because we are lucky enough to have been born into a world where we have a disproportionate amount of control. Success begets success. Money begets money. It is the same reason white Americans hold more power than African Americans. That doesn't mean men or white people are vile. It just means they need to be socially aware and use their power to change the status quo.

Ultimately, the separation of powers leads to horrible sterotypes by assigning men and women into different roles: Men who cry are “fags”. Women with short hair are “dykes”. Men are loudmouthed slobs. Women are shrill and embarrassed to fart. Men unfairly lose child custody battles. Women get raped and people ask how she was dressed. EVERYONE pays the price and everyone needs to work together to stop it.

During my web travels, I came across a lot of anti-feminist hatred. I don't use the word "hatred" lightly. Search "feminism" on youtube and watch a few videos at random and you'll see that most vids are anti-feminist screeds. The few videos that are pro-feminist receive tons of negative votes and are flooded with trolls. Most of the anger seems to be directed at radical misandry rather than more moderate feminism which, as far as I can tell, is the majority viewpoint. Most people hear "feminist" and think of wackjobs like Valerie Solanas. Why?

King (all the hell hail, by the way) - I'm disappointed.

Why are you attaching a label to yourself? Doesn't that seem rather silly? Don't you see yourself as 22 bazillion times more complex and unique and interesting than a simplistic label such as "feminist"?

Why are you trotting out "money" and "power" as the only two items worth seeking for everyone? That's it? Look at the "Mr. Skinny" thread in Community. All that tribute to Skinny - and nowhere did I see anyone marvel at the amount of money or power he'd accrued. Go through life seeking only money and power and drop the idea of friends or likability. When you have money and power and you die? The power goes out. The money goes to others. What's left? Zipperino.

This seems a little odd from you, King, and I'm wondering if you are posting this just to reap reactions. A school project? Research paper, perhaps?

 

[tyr_13]

For a discussion of privilege between whites and non-whites? Dude was basically say that, because he was the token white kid in grade school he knows alllll about discrimination by color. I was pointing out that being the odd white person isn't that bad when you've still a much better chance of getting into college and not going to jail.

You were trying to dismiss his experience based on appeal to worse problems, which he is also guilty of by the way, using a criteria where he also has it worse than most people.

This is doubly a poor example.

 

[Naive1000]

You were trying to dismiss his experience based on appeal to worse problems, which he is also guilty of by the way, using a criteria where he also has it worse than most people.

This is doubly a poor example.

I do not feel I was in a poor situation, I just think it gives me a different perspective. I was no worse than any other person just a bit of uniqueness that many others have no experience with. There's no reason to see this part of my life as a down side -- I see it more as a positive.

 

[truethat]

Riight.

I find it really weird that you don't know the difference between a post on a message board and someone's "life." Oh wait, actually that makes a lot of sense....


And King Merv I think this answers the OP rather well. I am so revolted by the consistent manipulation of the truth, the aim to always paint white men as somehow privileged because they are white and male. It's a load of crap from manipulated statistics from a non science that tries to put motive, emotion and other nonsensical things into the interpretation of data in order to twist it into some dramatic game.

I think what makes me disgusted so much by these kinds of statements is that the posters or speakers will actually expect to be respected for misandry and misogyny in the name of "feminism." I haven't seen much support for women here, or any support for men and women. I've seen a battering ram of statistics being aimed at men to prove they have an "unfair advantage."

It's not even worth discussing. And coming from me who will beat a horse to it's knees on these forums that says a lot.

 

[curi0us]

For a discussion of privilege between whites and non-whites? Dude was basically say that, because he was the token white kid in grade school he knows alllll about discrimination by color. I was pointing out that being the odd white person isn't that bad when you've still a much better chance of getting into college and not going to jail.

Do you know what the discrimination he experienced was?

 

[bookitty]

You were trying to dismiss his experience based on appeal to worse problems, which he is also guilty of by the way, using a criteria where he also has it worse than most people.

This is doubly a poor example.

Yes, thank you. It was a poor example. Dragging out any sort of "I had this benign experience therefore I can speak for people who live with true discrimination." is always stupid.

 

[Naive1000]

...[snip]... Dragging out any sort of "I had this benign experience therefore I can speak for people who live with true discrimination." is always stupid.

Okay, now I'm calling you out on this BS misrepresentation of what I said. All I said was that your implied claim that I'm racist was crap, and that I know something about it; not that I'm some expert or that I have some omniscient view on the subject or that I represent the oppressed. So, I'm offended by your condescension and blatantly false claims. Plus, you're attitude, to someone trying to have a civil conversation, by telling them their life experience means nothing is an example of real pig-headed bigotry. I think this conversation is done. You've shown you care nothing about what I have to say, and have no respect for my opinions or experiences.

 

[Arcade22]

Wait what? You think that not being discriminated against isn't privilege?

Wait, so now white men can't be discriminated against? Which *********** way do you want it? Can men be discriminated against or not?

 

[ixolite]

Last answer, TJ is not an MRA and has never claimed to be, he is an anti-feminist, they are not the same thing. His attitude on rape and suicide suck, he can be a real scumbag sometimes, but he's just one person and his opinions are his own. He's just an Internet celebrity with no pull and no power, so why does he matter?

So he was ranting on the men's rights subreddit by pure chance?
http://manboobz.com/2012/02/08/theamazingatheists-misogynist-meltdown/

Btw, as for the claim that true MRA's aren't like that, I have been following manboobz for a while now and this comes up quite frequently, however when called out to bring examples of the non-misogynistic MRA's, the MRA's fall silent. If those are just the extreme wackos it should be fairly easy to bring some normal ones, but there don't seem to be any. I also personally never have come across an MRA elsewhere who didn't expose him/herself as misogynistic sooner or later.

 

[Naive1000]

So he was ranting on the men's rights subreddit by pure chance?
http://manboobz.com/2012/02/08/theamazingatheists-misogynist-meltdown/

Btw, as for the claim that true MRA's aren't like that, I have been following manboobz for a while now and this comes up quite frequently, however when called out to bring examples of the non-misogynistic MRA's, the MRA's fall silent. If those are just the extreme wackos it should be fairly easy to bring some normal ones, but there don't seem to be any. I also personally never have come across an MRA elsewhere who didn't expose him/herself as misogynistic sooner or later.

Oh, come on, manboobz is a bigot and cherry picks the worst of the worst. And, usually out of context; to create a perfect circlejerk for his devoted disciples. He's like a cult leader. I've tried to have a conversation with him and he just blew off all evidence from pure confirmation bias. It's impossible to reason with the guy, so he's ignored like every other troll. He's just using hate to try and make himself an Internet celebrity. I see no intellectual honesty or integrity there. Why should any MRA answer someone who twists their words and spews hate at them. The effort would be pointless.

Also, there was a whole set of comments attacking a rape victim in his comments, but low and behold not a single feminist has called him or his out on it. TJ and his comments were big news, but they'll ignore it if you're on their side. There some prime double standard hypocrisy there for you. You know what's even more hillarious is that it was in an article about MRAs not supporting rape victims -- the irony. (Link)

As to TJ, he came there because of a user name of an SRS troll called ICumWhenIKillMen. No misandry there. So, he figured to find a sympathetic ear in MR to rage with him, but his thread was deleted immediately because linking to SRS is against the r/MensRights rules. None of the people there were from MR, just SRS trolls and TJ. He was badgered until he lost his cool and started attacking back. I don't justify what he did, but most people attack back when they're attacked. His comments were unconscionable, but trying to play like it was MR when it was really SRS and their ilk is just dishonest propaganda.

You say you've never come across a single non-misogynistic MRA? Boy, I have, and lots of them. I don't know ... could it be you're hostile to MRAs and are seeing what you want to see there? Just a guess, and I'm also guessing from what you're saying that you never really want to meet one either. Otherwise, you wouldn't be following manboobz that misandrist.

 

[KingMerv00]

Jeez, you go away for a weekend and the furniture gets rearranged...Anyway, I got what I was looking for from this thread. I definitely have a better understanding how and why people feel the way they do.

I put a fair amount of energy into the early parts of this thread so I'm not sure how much more I want to spend on catching up. If I vanish, don't be surprised. Thanks everyone for your opinions, especially those who could disagree civility.

King (all the hell hail, by the way) - I'm disappointed.

Why are you attaching a label to yourself? Doesn't that seem rather silly? Don't you see yourself as 22 bazillion times more complex and unique and interesting than a simplistic label such as "feminist"?

Up until now, I've never understood anti-label mentality. Labels are useful. They are shorthand when longhand won't do. But it turns out people will read more into your words if you label yourself "inappropriately". Had I expressed my ideas without the using "feminist" I probably wouldn't have reaped as much disappointment, been called a bigot, or been accused of secretly hating men. It's possible some people will never respect me again.

Live and learn.

Why are you trotting out "money" and "power" as the only two items worth seeking for everyone? That's it? Look at the "Mr. Skinny" thread in Community. All that tribute to Skinny - and nowhere did I see anyone marvel at the amount of money or power he'd accrued. Go through life seeking only money and power and drop the idea of friends or likability. When you have money and power and you die? The power goes out. The money goes to others. What's left? Zipperino.

Know thine audience. I discussed money and power because they are easier to quantify. I can quote statistics on CEO gender ratios but there is no metric unit for likability. In this forum, how for do you think I'd get trying to convince peope that women, on average, are "less liked"?

This seems a little odd from you, King, and I'm wondering if you are posting this just to reap reactions. A school project? Research paper, perhaps?

Sorry to further disappoint you. I am being honest.

I'll admit surprise and disappointment on my end too, Conspi. It seems I've lost some of your respect for espousing what I consider to be rather bland ideas in this thread:

1. Gender stereotypes damage everyone.

2. On average, women are measurably deficient in money and power when compared to men. (This in no way negates or diminishes the suffering of men in other areas like child custody.)

3. Everyone should fight to stop gender-based inequality.

No one has disagreed with me on 1 or 3. Some reasonable people questioned the accuracy of #2. I gave examples of how gender ratios are out of balance in government, business, and the media and then went away for the weekend. I am still willing to discuss the topic.

Sadly, most of the criticism was indirect. Several people people suggested I had a secret agenda, masked my hatred for men, and was only trying to get laid. There really isn't anything I can say to counter that sort of attack because I cannot prove a negative. I can only restate that I am hiding nothing.

 

[AvalonXQ]

So he was ranting on the men's rights subreddit by pure chance?
http://manboobz.com/2012/02/08/theamazingatheists-misogynist-meltdown/

Btw, as for the claim that true MRA's aren't like that, I have been following manboobz for a while now and this comes up quite frequently, however when called out to bring examples of the non-misogynistic MRA's, the MRA's fall silent. If those are just the extreme wackos it should be fairly easy to bring some normal ones, but there don't seem to be any. I also personally never have come across an MRA elsewhere who didn't expose him/herself as misogynistic sooner or later.

Thanks for pointing out that this happens to most groups.
I've heard many people say that the only feminists they had encountered were the radical misandrist kind, but I'd never before heard it said that some people's only experiences with MRA's are radical misogynists.
It's good to keep in perspective that most groups have a perception problem brought their most extreme members.

 

[KingMerv00]

Thanks for pointing out that this happens to most groups.
I've heard many people say that the only feminists they had encountered were the radical misandrist kind, but I'd never before heard it said that some people's only experiences with MRA's are radical misogynists.
It's good to keep in perspective that most groups have a perception problem brought their most extreme members.

You're just saying that because you are a Christian and want to kill all atheists.