Why so much hatred for feminism?

[Naive1000]

...[snip]... Of course there will be those who argue that the white western male is the most down-trodden critter on earth. (They can't even say the n-word in public! It's like the worst reverse discrimination!!!!)

I like you too. But, on this subject we'll have to agree to disagree. Because my privilege is only going to put me in the grave quicker, that's the only bonus I've seen.

Also, I do find it odd that women always tell men you have no idea what it's like to be a woman, so don't even try. But, for some reason, feel justified in knowing what it's like to be a man. I really would like to see some women try it for a while. Ultimately, we are all still individuals, and we all have individual life experiences. Lumping us all together and slapping a label on each and every one of us is just insulting to me.

There was an article from a trans-man on the subject; he talked about all his preconceptions about being a man and what it was like, then he talked about the reality being completely different. He talked about the rejections, the pressures, the expectations, the emotional problems, and so on. He realized reality and the propaganda were quite different.

 

[crimresearch]

I like you too. But, on this subject we'll have to agree to disagree. Because my privilege is only going to put me in the grave quicker, that's the only bonus I've seen.

Also, I do find it odd that women always tell men you have no idea what it's like to be a woman, so don't even try. But, for some reason, feel justified in knowing what it's like to be a man. I really would like to see some women try it for a while. Ultimately, we are all still individuals, and we all have individual life experiences. Lumping us all together and slapping a label on each and every one of us is just insulting to me.

There was an article from a trans-man on the subject; he talked about all his preconceptions about being a man and what it was like, then he talked about the reality being completely different. He talked about the rejections, the pressures, the expectations, the emotional problems, and so on. He realized reality and the propaganda were quite different.

And that article defines FtMs? None of them happy, or able to hack it as a 'real' man?

 

[cyborg]

knowing[/I] what it's like to be a man.

It's easy - obviously/

But really it makes me laugh - battle between the sexes? As if that was the major factor in social inequality

 

[Naive1000]

It is not the only possibility. The doctor could also be a father. It is a heterosexist puzzle.

Interesting, have you ever tried the reverse? You know mother/daughter instead to see how quickly it was solved in the other direction. It would be interesting to see if the same occurred. The single sex in the puzzle sets a certain single sex mindset/expectation. If you ever try I would love to hear the results.

...[snip]...
Privilege is systemic.
It’s the people who do the hiring, who make the art, who market it.
It's in the fact that higher economic status neighborhoods are more often de facto white neighborhoods, with households more often headed by males, and include better schools than minority neighborhoods.
School funding is higher and there are differences in the education that students in rich white neighborhoods receive.
How directors are men, or white, or both? How many executives of television studios or record labels? How many big sports club owners are white men compared to the number of black players?
How many Presidents were not white males?
What is the percentage of white males in Congress, on boards of directors, or are CEOs of the fortune 500 companies?

These are the measures by which white male privilege is defined, not the measures you've chosen which tell us something different.

White male privilege is about who is in positions of power, not who is better off or who has it easier and so on. You are arguing a different question by the measures you are using.

Women are the largest voting block and commonly pandered too. They also have one of the largest groups of lobbying organizations. Also, 51% of managers are female, and have been shown to be biased towards female in hiring and promotions (not discrimination though). In advertising I think women are ~60% of the managers.

Senior women age 50 and older control net worth of $19 trillion and own more than three-fourths of the nation’s financial wealth. Of the 743 women of wealth interviewed with at least $3 million in investable assets, 61.2% accumulated their fortunes through corporate employment, their own or a family business or a professional practice. Only 38.8% of the women had married into or inherited their money. High-net-worth women account for 39% of the country’s top wealth earners; 2.5 million of them have combined assets of $4.2 trillion. More than 1.3 million women professionals and executives earn in excess of $100,000 annually. 43% of Americans with more than $500,000 in assets are female.

Women account for 85% of all consumer purchases including everything from autos to health care:
91% of New Homes
66% PCs
92% Vacations
80% Healthcare
65% New Cars
89% Bank Accounts
93% Food
93 % OTC Pharmaceuticals

This is the US: money is power.

And that article defines FtMs? None of them happy, or able to hack it as a 'real' man?

I have no idea. I said it was an article about the preconceptions of being a man from a woman who became one: I specified nothing else. ETA: I find your 'real man' insinuation insulting. Trans-men are real men.

It's easy - obviously

But really it makes me laugh - battle between the sexes? As if that was the major factor in social inequality

I don't believe that. The root of the problem lies in the oligarchy, lack of accountability, and corruption throughout our systems both political and economic. But, talking about that would be diverting the topic.

 

[cyborg]

I don't believe that. The root of the problem lies in the oligarchy, lack of accountability, and corruption throughout our systems both political and economic. But, talking about that would be diverting the topic.

Exactly - if one is to complain complain about the truly gross inequities that affect you irrespective if you are a man or a woman. I see quotes of median income an laugh - you're still a poor bastard even if you were earning a few more pennies a week. It ignores the massive step ups.

 

[Naive1000]

Here's some white male privilege for ya: Me, APD, and 'Babysitting While White,' Part Deux.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Post # 273

Project much?

See how you still can't quote what has allegedly been asserted and disproven?

That takes an argument, which you do not have - obviously.

Or is the quote function broken? <snip> Neither - you keep proving how Feminist Manipulation University (FMU) trains one to work by deception. Thanks!

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited for Rules 0/12.

 

[bookitty]

Here's some white male privilege for ya: Me, APD, and 'Babysitting While White,' Part Deux.

A man was detained momentary because of an officers mistake. That is a horrible story and I feel for both of them. But do you really think the outcome would have been the same if the grandfather had been a man of color and the granddaughter had been white?

Or rather, how does this story contrast to white/POC statistics of being hassled by the police for no reason at all?

 

[Zelenius]

The reason for this reverse gender gap is mostly attributed to education. Young women are more likely to have a college degree than young men. Married women, women with children, and women older than 30, however, all still make less than men.

It is explained quite clearly in the article. Just like if there are more men applying for the job, it is more likely to have a higher male to female ratio; if there are more qualified females for the job, it is more likely to have a higher female to male ratio. You have to ask, though, what the numbers would be if there were an equal amount of males getting college degrees. Given that the rest of the female population lags, it says to me that women have to choose either or where as men have the opportunity to have a family and a career. I think the main reason why is, despite the fact that more men want to play a bigger role in family life, when it comes to family the woman's job is still seen as more disposable.

In order to make my sarcastic point, I intentionally ignored the fact that fewer young men have college degrees than young women(of course, I believe this is the single biggest reason they make more money than young males). But then you helped make my point for me. It's not necessarily because of gender but because of education that childless women under 30 make more money than men. And my point about men working longer hours at all ages still stands.

It works both ways, so lets control some other variables when it comes to explaining the earnings gap between working men and women in general. Look at what we get when we control just the number of hours worked:

Unmarried men and unmarried women working 50+ hours per week earn exactly the same salaries. U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, March Supplement, 2002.

Myth Buster Monday: Men earn more than women for the same job

 

[crimresearch]

See how you still can't quote what has allegedly been asserted and disproven?

That takes an argument, which you do not have - obviously.

Or is the quote function broken? <snip> Neither - you keep proving how Feminist Manipulation University (FMU) trains one to work by deception. Thanks!

The quote function worked just fine in post #273, as you are well aware.

In any case, my point is proven by your continuing to dodge the question, the type of feminism I asked about doesn't denigrate women at all... you were simply parroting an overgeneralized stereotype with nothing to back it up but blind faith.

 

[Naive1000]

A man was detained momentary because of an officers mistake. That is a horrible story and I feel for both of them. But do you really think the outcome would have been the same if the grandfather had been a man of color and the granddaughter had been white?

Or rather, how does this story contrast to white/POC statistics of being hassled by the police for no reason at all?

Actually, no I think it has to do with being male, and male stereotypes. But, police are the system which is where privilege is suppose to exist for white men by Skeptic Ginger's assertion. The system doesn't favor males that I've seen white, brown, black, purple, or whatever. Maybe in some areas there may be favoritism, but the US the population is 72% white in a lot of areas they'd be favoring everyone. There's a difference between privilege and discrimination. A black man would have been discriminated against, a white man just treated as a criminal, and a woman wouldn't have been questioned at all. So, who has systemic privilege there?

 

[bookitty]

Actually, no I think it has to do with being male, and male stereotypes. But, police are the system which is where privilege is suppose to exist for white men by Skeptic Ginger's assertion. The system doesn't favor males that I've seen white, brown, black, purple, or whatever. Maybe in some areas there may be favoritism, but the US the population is 72% white in a lot of areas they'd be favoring everyone. There's a difference between privilege and discrimination. A black man would have been discriminated against, a white man just treated as a criminal, and a woman wouldn't have been questioned at all. So, who has systemic privilege there?

Wait what? You think that not being discriminated against isn't privilege?

Purple? May I recommend a quick browse through this entertaining Q & A blog on racism? (warning: Language NSFW)

 

[truethat]

Actually, no I think it has to do with being male, and male stereotypes. But, police are the system which is where privilege is suppose to exist for white men by Skeptic Ginger's assertion. The system doesn't favor males that I've seen white, brown, black, purple, or whatever. Maybe in some areas there may be favoritism, but the US the population is 72% white in a lot of areas they'd be favoring everyone. There's a difference between privilege and discrimination. A black man would have been discriminated against, a white man just treated as a criminal, and a woman wouldn't have been questioned at all. So, who has systemic privilege there?

bookitty wants everyone that's not a white male to somehow be a victim of the system. When you call her on it, she says she's not saying that. But yeah in my opinion she can't see any sort of equality in people because she's too busy figuring out how they are a victim and putting them into categories.

If this "psuedoscience" wasn't followed by an "ology" sociology would be called what it really is, racism, sexism and judging people by their race, gender, sexual orientation, age, socioeconomic status etc.

I don't even bother any more because people who study this stuff are just as indoctrinated as other types of woo believers.

 

[Naive1000]

Wait what? You think that not being discriminated against isn't privilege?

Purple? May I recommend a quick browse through this entertaining Q & A blog on racism? (warning: Language NSFW)

It's not a white male privilege. It would then be a white privilege.

With the link I'm not sure what you want me to see. I have no problem with race, or saying anything about it. I was the token white kid in my school up to high school, so I know about discrimination. I couldn't even go to some of my friends houses because they didn't allow white people in the house. So, if your trying to imply I'm racist just say it. I've been called worse.

ETA: And No I don't think "not being discriminated" is a privilege it's the base and where everyone should be.

 

[sgtbaker]

In order to make my sarcastic point, I intentionally ignored the fact that fewer young men have college degrees than young women(of course, I believe this is the single biggest reason they make more money than young males). But then you helped make my point for me. It's not necessarily because of gender but because of education that childless women under 30 make more money than men. And my point about men working longer hours at all ages still stands.

It works both ways, so lets control some other variables when it comes to explaining the earnings gap between working men and women in general. Look at what we get when we control just the number of hours worked:



Myth Buster Monday: Men earn more than women for the same job

3.Men more often take on jobs that involve physical labor, outdoor work, overnight shifts and dangerous conditions. Men will put up with these unpleasant factors so that they can earn more – most women won’t. Looking at hazardous jobs, 92 percent of workplace deaths occur to men.

I would like to address this one specifically. I would like to ask any males here, who've applied for manual labor jobs; if you apply for say, contruction clean up, do your interviewers typically inform you that you get all sweaty and dirty? I've always wondered if they honestly think no one knows this? Granted, I will admit that my sarcastic reply probably didn't help me get that job but the way he was talking to me was really getting on my nerves. Do you really think I have no idea that contruction clean up is hard work? How about applying for a job at a tire place or to do oil changes; do they typically try to warn all potential applicants that your hands get stained with grease? Is this something that most people don't already know? It is not as easy for a woman to get manual labor jobs.

This is another pretty interesting article that tries to account for the wage gap.

And she found that, even in temporary jobs, women get paid substantially less than men, for the same type of work. Women earned an average of $25.08 per hour while men, for the exact same job with the same qualifications, would earn an average of $29.66. And we can’t blame that on firm specific skills.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/freekve...between-men-and-women-sexist-or-functional/2/

That's per hour for the same job, not yearly income.

 

[Naive1000]

I would like to address this one specifically. I would like to ask any males here, who've applied for manual labor jobs; if you apply for say, contruction clean up, do your interviewers typically inform you that you get all sweaty and dirty? I've always wondered if they honestly think no one knows this? Granted, I will admit that my sarcastic reply probably didn't help me get that job but the way he was talking to me was really getting on my nerves. Do you really think I have no idea that contruction clean up is hard work? How about applying for a job at a tire place or to do oil changes; do they typically try to warn all potential applicants that your hands get stained with grease? Is this something that most people don't already know? It is not as easy for a woman to get manual labor jobs.

This is another pretty interesting article that tries to account for the wage gap.

And she found that, even in temporary jobs, women get paid substantially less than men, for the same type of work. Women earned an average of $25.08 per hour while men, for the exact same job with the same qualifications, would earn an average of $29.66. And we can’t blame that on firm specific skills.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/freekve...between-men-and-women-sexist-or-functional/2/

That's per hour for the same job, not yearly income.

I'll agree those are sexism and should be fought against. Though in some cases in can be from experience with other women applicants or high turnaround, but I feel that's highly unlikely. Also same job, same pay, unless she's not doing the job up to the same level: like takes more time to do the same job, moves less amount of total material, generally not pulling her weight, etc.... Sounds like lawsuit material on the pay.

But, I can turn this around with nursing, teaching, daycare, pretty much any job dealing with children, data entry, customer service, sales, etc... (Link). I think all discrimination is bad but it's not a one way street.

 

[bookitty]

It's not a white male privilege. It would then be a white privilege.

With the link I'm not sure what you want me to see. I have no problem with race, or saying anything about it. I was the token white kid in my school up to high school, so I know about discrimination. I couldn't even go to some of my friends houses because they didn't allow white people in the house. So, if your trying to imply I'm racist just say it. I've been called worse.

ETA: And No I don't think "not being discriminated" is a privilege it's the base and where everyone should be.

Token white kid in grade school, eh? So how did that affect your chance to get into college?

ETA: yes, it damn well should be the base but it's not. Why? Because, duh, privilege.

 

[tyr_13]

Token white kid in grade school, eh? So how did that affect your chance to get into college?

ETA: yes, it damn well should be the base but it's not. Why? Because, duh, privilege.

Probably not as negatively as his being male.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

bookitty wants everyone that's not a white male to somehow be a victim of the system. When you call her on it, she says she's not saying that. But yeah in my opinion she can't see any sort of equality in people because she's too busy figuring out how they are a victim and putting them into categories.

....

...
I don't judge anyone else's life. You keep saying I am but I don't. ....

Riight.

 

[bookitty]

Probably not as negatively as his being male.

You know that it's 58% women, right? It's not like a 30/70 split. It's 8% above 50/50. And, if anyone bothered reading the article I posted, the numbers are starting to swing back to center.