Why so much hatred for feminism?

[Naive1000]

We've discussed privilege before. It is a very strange human construct (advantages that are granted to some groups over other groups that are given by society not earned by the individual) and discussion of it can be fraught with hyperbole or exaggeration by both sides. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

The choice between discussing privilege or doing something about it, is a false dilemma. One can easily do both and they sometimes go hand-in-hand.

ETA: I don't know how familiar you are with the inaccurately-named Men's Rights Movement. (Not to be confused with the groups like Father's Rights Movement which is actually working towards gender equality from a male standpoint.)

The MRM is primarily a bunch over extremely misogynistic people who advocate for things like legal rape and spousal abuse. They dress it up with the occasionally rational but in general, the whole movement is hateful and frankly, pretty scary.

I don't think you're like that at all but you do occasionally bring up the same stuff that is prevalent on their websites and forums.

I disagree with privilege: the concept does not hold up to scrutiny. Also, I disagree that MRM are "primarily a bunch over extremely misogynistic people who advocate for things like legal rape and spousal abuse.". That's like me claiming feminists all want to burn men at the stake, kill all male fetuses, and relegate men to second class citizens. If you take that attitude how can reasonable agree with feminism when a small vocal group defines the whole movement. This is just hypocrisy and I think beneath you.

ETA: And with people like vwgub out to attack anyone that has a different view can you not understand why many MRAs hate feminism.

 

[vwgub]

I disagree with privilege: the concept does not hold up to scrutiny. Also, I disagree that MRM are "primarily a bunch over extremely misogynistic people who advocate for things like legal rape and spousal abuse.". That's like me claiming feminists all want to burn men at the stake, kill all male fetuses, and relegate men to second class citizens. If you take that attitude how can reasonable agree with feminism when a small vocal group defines the whole movement. This is just hypocrisy and I think beneath you.

ETA: And with people like vwgub out to attack anyone that has a different view can you not understand why many MRAs hate feminism.

Are you a white male in Europe,Canada, or the U.S.A.?

 

[Arcade22]

What newspaper? What date was the story published? What was the name of the admissions person, and what was their actual job title/role? What were their exact words as quoted, and what story was the reporter covering when he or she obtained this quote?

Do you except me to dig up a story that i read in a newspaper two years ago? I'm not going to do that and i don't care if you believe me or not.

The NFPA standards for firefighters, which to my knowledge most departments in the US follow, does not have any different standards for men and women when it comes to physical strength or performance. I suspect it is the same with police.

I do not live in America. Thankfully it's just what feminist do want to do here, and they haven't been able to do this yet. Our right-wing government seems to have let common sense rule over ideology (in part) so they have even removed any sexual discrimination in physical exams from this year. Too bad they made a lot of other stupid things so that just about anyone can become a police officer right now. Apparently someone think it's a really ******* good idea to have Swedish police that can barely speak Swedish and have **** grades. One step forward, two steps back.

However, physical strength is not the only asset an individual might bring to either profession and women can do a number of things better than men in many situations. They can often diffuse a hostile person or comfort a child or search a female suspect in ways men cannot always do.

And that justifies a discrepancy in physical exams? I can very well agree that i could be positive to specifically hire or take on women in specific types of work (psychologists, doctors and etc) but as a general policy its just retarded. Evidently feminists disagree (except when they lose their privileges when the same policies favors men). So much for equality.

 

[bookitty]

I disagree with privilege: the concept does not hold up to scrutiny. Also, I disagree that MRM are "primarily a bunch over extremely misogynistic people who advocate for things like legal rape and spousal abuse.". That's like me claiming feminists all want to burn men at the stake, kill all male fetuses, and relegate men to second class citizens. If you take that attitude how can reasonable agree with feminism when a small vocal group defines the whole movement. This is just hypocrisy and I think beneath you.

ETA: And with people like vwgub out to attack anyone that has a different view can you not understand why many MRAs hate feminism.

I am not going on self-identified MRA's but rather what I read on their websites, forums and message boards.

 

[vwgub]

I disagree with privilege: the concept does not hold up to scrutiny. Also, I disagree that MRM are "primarily a bunch over extremely misogynistic people who advocate for things like legal rape and spousal abuse.". That's like me claiming feminists all want to burn men at the stake, kill all male fetuses, and relegate men to second class citizens. If you take that attitude how can reasonable agree with feminism when a small vocal group defines the whole movement. This is just hypocrisy and I think beneath you.

ETA: And with people like vwgub out to attack anyone that has a different view can you not understand why many MRAs hate feminism.

I only recently became aware of the whole MRA thing. I use to believe in that we need to look as radical feminism as much as feminism because of this. But the ONLY reason I am aware radical feminism is because the MRA
s keep carping about it otherwise it would just be an echo chamber off on the fringes. In other words YOU are making an issue out of a non issue which is clouding the read issue of missogny. Get it.

 

[Naive1000]

I am not going on self-identified MRA's but rather what I read on their websites, forums and message boards.

The MRM is a fairly new movement and like feminism it gets a lot of hate. I have MRA friends, just like I have feminist friends. The idea that either side should be tarred by the crazies is just crazy. Do you even have a clue how hard it is to get a man to stand up for himself? Others sure, but for their own rights ... not so easy. Men are just as molded into gender roles women and getting them to fight against them is near impossible. Some MRAs use angry nasty rhetoric to shake people up -- just as feminism did not but 50 years ago. Just look at all the crazy things feminist leaders have said over the years and you would believe they are a hate group too.

"Men are distinguished from women by their commitment to do violence rather than to be victimized by it." - Adrea Dworkin.
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." - Adrea Dworkin.
"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." - Valerie Solanas.
"All men are rapists and that's all they are" - Marilyn French.
"Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free." - Adrea Dworkin.
"Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." - Ti-Grace Atkinson
"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist" - National NOW Times

 

[bookitty]

The MRM is a fairly new movement and like feminism it gets a lot of hate. I have MRA friends, just like I have feminist friends. The idea that either side should be tarred by the crazies is just crazy. Do you even have a clue how hard it is to get a man to stand up for himself? Others sure, but for their own rights ... not so easy. Men are just as molded into gender roles women and getting them to fight against them is near impossible. Some MRAs use angry nasty rhetoric to shake people up -- just as feminism did not but 50 years ago. Just look at all the crazy things feminist leaders have said over the years and you would believe they are a hate group too.

"Men are distinguished from women by their commitment to do violence rather than to be victimized by it." - Adrea Dworkin.
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." - Adrea Dworkin.
"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." - Valerie Solanas.
"All men are rapists and that's all they are" - Marilyn French.
"Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free." - Adrea Dworkin.
"Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." - Ti-Grace Atkinson
"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist" - National NOW Times

Adrea Dworkin has been dead for 7 years and expect the rest of your quotes are just as dated. (Except the Marilyn French which is both dated and a quote taken out of context.)

The MRA's, MGTOW's and PUA's are new, they are vocal now and they have an entire internet culture which bounces it back with increasingly violent overtones. Feminism has always had contention in the ranks. I was arguing against Dworkin in the 80's.

As I said, I don't include groups which are working on gender equality from a male standpoint, they have both my respect and my support. People who think that women are nothing more than convenient holes or sperm-traps have neither.

 

[Humes fork]

Well, why do (Swedish) feminists spout pseudoscience (like that genders are social constructions) and demand a male tax? I don't hate them, I just think they are stupid.

It may be different in other countries, but in Sweden feminists have totally destroyed the brand. I wont ever call myself a feminist, but I'm very much for gender equality.

 

[A'isha]

Do you except me to dig up a story that i read in a newspaper two years ago?

If you're tying to cite it as evidence backing up your assertions, then yes.

Yes I do.

I'm not going to do that and i don't care if you believe me or not.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up. And you really shouldn't have doubled down and gotten indignant when Travis doubted your story.

 

[Naive1000]

...[snip]... As I said, I don't include groups which are working on gender equality from a male standpoint, they have both my respect and my support. People who think that women are nothing more than convenient holes or sperm-traps have neither.

Well here's a new thing to add to your list of sayings: NAMALT (not all MRAs are like that).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ouch, I just lost some respect for you there.

Privilege, no, it's opression olymics at it's best.

Unsheltered Homeless - 96% in 2009
Life Expectancy - 5-10 years less for men than women.
Suicide - 4 times the number of men die than women. In 2008 men were 81% of all suicides.
Homicide - 80% men.
Deaths on the Job - 93% men (2010).
Injuries on the Job - 64% men (2007).
College Enrollment - 58% women (2009).
Unemployment Rates (2010) - Women 8.6% : Men 10.5%.
Affirmative Action Education Programs - Women, yes : Men, no.
Average Hours Worked Per Week (2010) - Women 36.1: Men 40.2.
Incarceration Rates (2009) - Women 7% : Men 93%.
US Military Deaths From 1950 – 2010 - 99.9% Men : 0.01% Women.
Federally Funded Battered Shelters - Women 2000 : Men 0.
Forced Selective Service - Men, yes : Women, no.
Drug and Alcohol Addiction and Abuse Rates (2010) - Men 12.2% : Women 5.8%.


Oh, and don't forget the misandry. Thick right here.

While you have an excellent point that it does depend on your outcome measures, you are making the false assumption that because there is white male privilege in our society that means all white males benefit from it and they don't.

 

[vwgub]

Well here's a new thing to add to your list of sayings: NAMALT (not all MRAs are like that).

except when the are. So is the amazing atheist a True MRA or not?

 

[ginjawarrior]

As I said, I don't include groups which are working on gender equality from a male standpoint, they have both my respect and my support. People who think that women are nothing more than convenient holes or sperm-traps have neither.

on that note could you not use custody as part of your arguments (unless you live in a society that has neutral laws)

someone earlier in this thread suggested egalitarianism that IMO is what we should strive for any other label does nothing but divide

 

[Naive1000]

except when the are. So is the amazing atheist a True MRA or not?

Last answer, TJ is not an MRA and has never claimed to be, he is an anti-feminist, they are not the same thing. His attitude on rape and suicide suck, he can be a real scumbag sometimes, but he's just one person and his opinions are his own. He's just an Internet celebrity with no pull and no power, so why does he matter?

 

[Complexity]

I don't have a clue what an 'MRA' or an 'MRM' is, and I don't want to.

Equality is the goal, every -ism tends to suck, and Dworkin was a nasty piece of work.

I find it best to try to adhere to principles rather than align myself with groups.

 

[Naive1000]

While you have an excellent point that it does depend on your outcome measures, you are making the false assumption that because there is white male privilege in our society that means all white males benefit from it and they don't.

The problem is then women are also privileged and it all comes to naught. The only reason I hear privilege brought up is to silence dissenting opinions or shame others who disagree with the facts. Also, perception has much to do with privilege, what some women may see as privilege many men see as obligation and duty (something they have no choice in and have to do).

I don't have a clue what an 'MRA' or an 'MRM' is, and I don't want to.

Equality is the goal, every -ism tends to suck, and Dworkin was a nasty piece of work.

I find it best to try to adhere to principles rather than align myself with groups.

I agree that's why I'm neither: I'm an egalitarian. I try to avoid all the labels that pit one gender against the other.

 

[vwgub]

Well, why do (Swedish) feminists spout pseudoscience (like that genders are social constructions) and demand a male tax? I don't hate them, I just think they are stupid.

It may be different in other countries, but in Sweden feminists have totally destroyed the brand. I wont ever call myself a feminist, but I'm very much for gender equality.

They have destroyed the brand or people talking about them have destroyed the brand?

 

[vwgub]

Last answer, TJ is not an MRA and has never claimed to be, he is an anti-feminist, they are not the same thing. His attitude on rape and suicide suck, he can be a real scumbag sometimes, but he's just one person and his opinions are his own. He's just an Internet celebrity with no pull and no power, so why does he matter?

Answer in your question.

 

[epepke]

Your analogy is a fail. I was specific about what evidence I asked epepke for.

My ex-wife was required to take one when she went back to school. This would have been around 1994. I'll try to find some references.

But before we waste time on a pissing contest, let me reframe what my objections are to all these claims about how the women's movement went too far, became extreme, was its own worst enemy, yadda yadda.

There are two hypotheses here to explain observed events/groups/individual activists. One hypothesis is the above description is a true representation, "the women's movement went too far, became extreme, was its own worst enemy, yadda yadda". But the narrative I believe I observed was that the opposition to the changes that were being sought focused on extreme elements and used them as examples supporting the opposition's objections. It goes on today and more than a few people are fooled by it.

So, basically, are you saying that because you observed opposition based on resistance to social change that therefore there was no other criticism based on other reasons? That is a bit of a non-starter.

If you are not saying that, I do not see what the argument is.

 

[vwgub]

The problem is then women are also privileged and it all comes to naught. The only reason I hear privilege brought up is to silence dissenting opinions or shame others who disagree with the facts. Also, perception has much to do with privilege, what some women may see as privilege many men see as obligation and duty (something they have no choice in and have to do).



I agree that's why I'm neither: I'm an egalitarian. I try to avoid all the labels that pit one gender against the other.

Except when they do.