Why so much hatred for feminism?

Not buying this nonsense. I see no evidence of this claim.

I see no evidence any Black person ever suffered discrimination. I'm not buying that nonsense.

Anyway, as for evidence, we can start with the very amusing book, "Fashionable Nonsense", or Susan Haack's "Memoirs of a Passionate Modereate".
 
Where is your evidence women's studies were ever mandatory in any university?


I'm confused about what you are saying here.

Not buying this nonsense. I see no evidence of this claim.

I hate to sound like Claus Larson but, evidence, please.

Again, what is your evidence of this narrative?

Although I don't agree that anti-logic was as prevalent in the feminist community as epepke seems to think, there was some of it. Primarily related to "godess" thinking. You know, all that woman is the womb, the creator of the world stuff that overlapped both feminism and paganism. Much of it was based on "women's innate intuition" or some other form of pseudo-empowering validation of feelings.

I understand where it came from. Expressing or having emotion is considered a sign of weakness and used to invalidate women ("Is it your time of the month?" "A female president would nuke Russia because she was on the rag!") Embracing the idea that women were extra-intuitive and that it gave them a sort of power was a very weird backlash.

It was also annoying as all hell. Which is why I remember those few women who tried to press the issue. But don't ever remember it being a major player in the dialog. All my feminist buddies just wanted to go home after a long day as a clinic escort, listen to some Joan Jett and have some formally informed sex.
 
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Yes, giving women the right to vote and so forth worked pretty well. Now apparently men are second class citizens who have to sit in the back of the buss, behind women. In fact i remember a newspaper article where someone in charge of university admissions explicitly said that it was impossible for men to get discriminated in favor of women when they always got places in universities against men, since discrimination was man against woman.

I guess these people are just a harmless minority with zero influence, unlike the real feminists.



Nope. It's because it was about MEN exploiting WOMEN because they were 'objectified' I.E standard crazy feminist (perhaps not of the one true variety) rhetoric. They also banned strip-clubs and so on for the same reason. Then again this isn't real feminism if i understand it correctly, so who gives a crap?



Sure you do.



As i said before it was all about how WOMEN were 'objectified' and 'exploited' by MEN, not the other way around. It's the same 'argument' here in this country too. You honestly don't think these feminists give a **** about men do you?



I'm sorry, but that is the only form of feminism that is politically and socially relevant. I'm sure equalist might fit you better.



Radicals? These are the moderates!



Well if you want to be called a feminist it seems good form to call you that.



I thought the thread was called "Why is there so much hatred for feminism"? Should i also be able to take up why feminist (perhaps not of the one true variety) deserve scorn? Equal rights are a good thing. Too bad feminists use 'equality' as way to discriminate against men.

Some people are apparently not going to be happy until Humanity is a gray, sexless and faceless mass that reproduces by cloning. Eating the same food, earning the same wages, looking exactly the same... true equality at last!

So where is it that men are sitting in the back of the bus? because I kinda think I would have heard about that.
 
True, there are more issues than just working wives here. However, one consequence of encouraging working wives is that it can end up removing the option for a mother to not seek external employment and you need to decide if you are OK with this.

The other issue with feminism is the way it denigrates women. It is not just about removing restrictive laws or changing social attitudes. Apparently women are not good enough to compete in a level playing field (especially if they are raising children at the same time) so we need pro-discrimination laws, unfair dismissal laws, quotas etc. I don't see why women don't see how paternalistic this attitude is.

Oh geez. The old "If we're all supposed to be equal, then why aren't things equal!" Women and minorities are good enough to compete in a level playing field if they are given one. It is not paternalistic to create that field.

An extreme example: At a job interview, even if they have the same education and the same background, a white, able-bodied, 26 year old straight guy will have an advantage over a gay, older woman of color in a wheel chair. Quotas and anti-discrimination laws reduce that advantage so that they can equally compete.

Also, if we had removed the antiquated social attitudes that dissuade men from being full time parents at the same time as we increased the female workforce, we wouldn't have a problem with excess labor. (Not that I agree that excess labor is the cause of social ills which lead to the necessity of a two-parent income.) Blaming feminism which works to eradicate harmful gender stereotypes doesn't make sense.
 
Women and minorities are good enough to compete in a level playing field if they are given one. It is not paternalistic to create that field.
Defining a level playing field as one that is tilted in favour of women and minorities doesn't sound very logical to me.
 
Yes, giving women the right to vote and so forth worked pretty well. Now apparently men are second class citizens who have to sit in the back of the buss, behind women. In fact i remember a newspaper article where someone in charge of university admissions explicitly said that it was impossible for men to get discriminated in favor of women when they always got places in universities against men, since discrimination was man against woman.

Great story.

I don't believe a word of if it but keep on going. :rolleyes:
 
Evidence? I've only read this before in a parody, I didn't think people actually believed it.
In the past married women were prohibited from the work place. I'm not saying that increased participation has caused housing prices to rise, only that it is a possible factor.
 
Seriously, unless you have some data that suggests that there actually are medical conditions that threaten men more and that medicine could actually do more about, that seems to me silly. You can't expect medicine to treat something that isn't there. We're not talking magic there.

How about cancer ? Breast cancer receive more funding than prostate cancer, lung cancer, colon cancer, and so forth.
 
But not as being stupid, but as being "victims" of male patriarchy.

Women have to be victims in the dogma of feminism - there's no way out of that. If women aren't being systematically victimised there's nothing to complain about.
 
Defining a level playing field as one that is tilted in favour of women and minorities doesn't sound very logical to me.

Don't you get it?! When you lower the standards for women in things like police, the military, fire departments it favors equality by making sure that innate biological differences don't get in the way!

Great story.

I don't believe a word of if it but keep on going. :rolleyes:

Yeah, i made up a news story i read two years ago.
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The funny thing is that this was supposed to make it more 'equal' in universities (because true equality is all about making sure that there is an equal amount of vaginas and penises, according to feminist ideology) but when women were discriminated against and men came before women in things like veterinary educations and so on these whiny bitches got really pissed. It's one thing to make things more 'equal' by favoring women and it's another thing to create 'equality' by favoring men! Again exposing how pathetically self-serving and hypocritical feminists are.

I read that they were going to stop doing this a while back but I'm uncertain if they have actually done that.
 
They do too. But you said they were men influenced by men as if no women have influence on men.

Do you actually remember the things you post, previously, or do you just flush it from your memory and start every post that follows with an entirely different idea? You blamed the expectation on men to work and support the family on the patriachal societies of Egypt and Greece, but when it comes to America, it's just not the case. Relative to history, the feminist movement is pretty young. When you live in a country where roughly 80% of the population adheres to one of the many religions that view men as the head of the household and women as property of the man, what is the likelyhood that the majority of the population is going to put the responsibility on men?
Who wrote these ancient doctrines? Men. Who is the majority in the court system? Men. Who is the majority in government? Men.

That doesn't mean that women don't also suffer from the same delusion. Believe me, I see it fairly evenly across the genders. My income has always been a source of conflict. From the age of 18, I've been receiving monthly payments from a lawsuit and it's always been higher earnings than the men I've dated. For the first five years of my marriage, my ex had serious issues with the fact that I earned more than him. He could never give me a logical reason why, it just bothered him. My payments have finally capped out but compared to the national average, I make more now than most two income households. My fiance had serious issues with it, when we first got together. He would announce that he was broke so we were going to have a boring weekend and I would ask why; I had money. It took a lot for him to get over the idea of me paying for dinner. When we went out, the server would bring the check and put it in the center of the table. I would grab it and put my card on it. The server would bring it back and put it in front of him to sign, just out of habit.

He (my fiance) hated his job. He was seriously overqualified and underpaid. I made the suggestion that we could live on my income while he went back to school to get a focused degree in an area that he would find more gratifying. He was very resistant, at first. I've had to defend the same decision to my mother, sister, friend, and his mother, to fully financially support us while he got his degree. To him, and all the others, the argument was the same; would you have the same problem if he was working full time while I was getting my degree?
No but that's your money?
If it was the other way around, would you call it his money or would it be money to run the household?
Nobody can explain the difference because it is just and argument from tradition; the idea that men have to support the household. It's archaic and sexist and a part of the gendered expectations that feminists challenge. Unfortunately, the idea is thousands of years old and it's going to take more than 100 years of challenging it to eliminate the practice from society. I just don't understand how it helps anything to dismiss the movement that challenges it because they have the nerve to address women's issues, as well.
Dismissing the entire movement because of some radical ideas makes about as much sense as accusing all women as the source of their own problems because a few of them can be catty.

I don't judge anyone else's life. You keep saying I am but I don't. I'll judge what people say and things they do but not the person. Everyone screws up something in their life.

But if someone says something stupid I'll point it out. If people make excuses for people out of same lame BS then I'll point it out. If people lie and post generalizations on here and never back them up with statistics I'll point it out.

:i:

People appeal to emotion. I'll point that out too. You seem to think that because I feel something as a personal choice for me, I expect other people to do the same thing. But why in the hell would I make that sort of connection

It's hard to come to any other conclusion when you say things like "X is just <insert any negative opinion>, what I did was <insert any self promoting life experience>."
 
I see no evidence any Black person ever suffered discrimination. I'm not buying that nonsense.

Anyway, as for evidence, we can start with the very amusing book, "Fashionable Nonsense", or Susan Haack's "Memoirs of a Passionate Modereate".
Your analogy is a fail. I was specific about what evidence I asked epepke for.

I have 3 college degrees from 2 different colleges and none of the required courses outside on one's major ever went beyond reading, writing, math, some very basic sociology or a related 'ology', and a second language. There is no way a specific course in women's studies was ever mandatory in any university. That is much too far afield from the basics to be a cross major requirement.

Such a claim about required courses in university is hardly analogous to evidence of a well known condition in society like segregation.


But before we waste time on a pissing contest, let me reframe what my objections are to all these claims about how the women's movement went too far, became extreme, was its own worst enemy, yadda yadda.

There are two hypotheses here to explain observed events/groups/individual activists. One hypothesis is the above description is a true representation, "the women's movement went too far, became extreme, was its own worst enemy, yadda yadda". But the narrative I believe I observed was that the opposition to the changes that were being sought focused on extreme elements and used them as examples supporting the opposition's objections. It goes on today and more than a few people are fooled by it.

The birth control mandate included in a preventative care mandate becomes evidence Obama is out to gut religious freedom. "Liberals" becomes a dirty word associated with some kind of bizarre socialist/communist anti-capitalism group, the likes of which I've only seen in a tiny left fringe which includes the Socialists Worker's Party.

When the opposition fights a movement like social change this absurd exaggeration and drawing attention to any fringe group or individual is a natural progression of events. Or, the leaders of the movement for change are depicted as radical by people who've never heard or read the actual position of the leader. The false rumor becomes believed fact as it is passed from person to person.

At the time of the civil rights movement, a lot of people, including powerful people in our own government, painted Martin Luther King as a crazy radical commie. Were the Black Panthers their own worst enemy? Probably. But did they represent the main arm of the Civil Rights movement? No.

There are differences. Women were (and are) an integrated group that experienced unequal treatment. Blacks were not integrated. So there are some categorical differences between the two movements. The changes the blacks accomplished are more visible. But the women's movement also made great progress. Both groups are on a higher but not yet quite equal plateau. To see the women's movement as ineffective, taken over by its own worst enemy radicals and so on, while the black civil rights movement's radicals have faded and others like MLK and Rosa Parks seen as heroes, it's because of the nature of the social change, not because the leaders were that much different overall.
 
Yeah, i made up a news story i read two years ago. [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/188094b75f85d8a1d1.gif[/qimg]

What newspaper? What date was the story published? What was the name of the admissions person, and what was their actual job title/role? What were their exact words as quoted, and what story was the reporter covering when he or she obtained this quote?
 
But before we waste time on a pissing contest, let me reframe what my objections are to all these claims about how the women's movement went too far, became extreme, was its own worst enemy, yadda yadda.

There are two hypotheses here to explain observed events/groups/individual activists. One hypothesis is the above description is a true representation, "the women's movement went too far, became extreme, was its own worst enemy, yadda yadda". But the narrative I believe I observed was that the opposition to the changes that were being sought focused on extreme elements and used them as examples supporting the opposition's objections. It goes on today and more than a few people are fooled by it.

The birth control mandate included in a preventative care mandate becomes evidence Obama is out to gut religious freedom. "Liberals" becomes a dirty word associated with some kind of bizarre socialist/communist anti-capitalism group, the likes of which I've only seen in a tiny left fringe which includes the Socialists Worker's Party.

When the opposition fights a movement like social change this absurd exaggeration and drawing attention to any fringe group or individual is a natural progression of events. Or, the leaders of the movement for change are depicted as radical by people who've never heard or read the actual position of the leader. The false rumor becomes believed fact as it is passed from person to person.

At the time of the civil rights movement, a lot of people, including powerful people in our own government, painted Martin Luther King as a crazy radical commie. Were the Black Panthers their own worst enemy? Probably. But did they represent the main arm of the Civil Rights movement? No.

There are differences. Women were (and are) an integrated group that experienced unequal treatment. Blacks were not integrated. So there are some categorical differences between the two movements. The changes the blacks accomplished are more visible. But the women's movement also made great progress. Both groups are on a higher but not yet quite equal plateau. To see the women's movement as ineffective, taken over by its own worst enemy radicals and so on, while the black civil rights movement's radicals have faded and others like MLK and Rosa Parks seen as heroes, it's because of the nature of the social change, not because the leaders were that much different overall.

This... so much this.

I only snipped out the first few paragraphs because I have not gone to a traditional university so I have no idea what's required and what's not. It has not thing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with that.
 
How about cancer ? Breast cancer receive more funding than prostate cancer, lung cancer, colon cancer, and so forth.
What is this cherry picked fact supposed to be evidence of? (And while we just looked at the prostate cancer donations in another thread, I'm not accepting your other claims without checking, but I digress.)

Women were dying more often from heart attacks because physicians didn't take their complaints of chest pain seriously.

Women being ignored when talking to doctors about chest pains

Shall we go on?
 
"Women were dying more often from heart attacks because physicians didn't take their complaints of chest pain seriously.

Women being ignored when talking to doctors about chest pains

Shall we go on?"
____________________________________________________________


Oh, please do, since this was brought up on page 1 and roundly ignored for 6 pages.
 
Don't you get it?! When you lower the standards for women in things like police, the military, fire departments it favors equality by making sure that innate biological differences don't get in the way! ...
The NFPA standards for firefighters, which to my knowledge most departments in the US follow, does not have any different standards for men and women when it comes to physical strength or performance. I suspect it is the same with police.

However, physical strength is not the only asset an individual might bring to either profession and women can do a number of things better than men in many situations. They can often diffuse a hostile person or comfort a child or search a female suspect in ways men cannot always do.
 
SG said:
"Women were dying more often from heart attacks because physicians didn't take their complaints of chest pain seriously.

Women being ignored when talking to doctors about chest pains

Shall we go on?"

Oh, please do, since this was brought up on page 1 and roundly ignored for 6 pages.
ftfy

With 6,000+ posts surely someone by now has told you how to use the quote reply and properly quote other posters.


I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps if you'd also point to the post in question on page one your comment would make more sense.
 

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