Why so much hatred for feminism?

[KingMerv00]

Logic and fairness are sometimes mutually exclusive.

How is unfair to make the real father live up to his responsibility instead of forcing another man to shoulder it for him?

 

[crimresearch]

How is unfair to make the real father live up to his responsibility instead of forcing another man to shoulder it for him?

It is unfair to the child, who can't just go out and get a job to support themselves while adults wrangle over paternity.

That is why it is called 'child support' and not 'fair payment'.

 

[KingMerv00]

It is unfair to the child, who can't just go out and get a job to support themselves while adults wrangle over paternity.

That is why it is called 'child support' and not 'fair payment'.

You are making the assumption that child support isn't being paid while the parents "wrangle over paternity". The presumptive father (the husband) whould pay until he proves his case. Problem solved.

 

[bookitty]

It is unfair to the child, who can't just go out and get a job to support themselves while adults wrangle over paternity.

That is why it is called 'child support' and not 'fair payment'.

That's the best I've seen it put.

Because child support for non-related children comes up every time someone mentions feminism, I would like to see some numbers. What percentage of child support is paid (knowingly, of course) to men who are not the child's father? While we are at it, it would also be good to know what percentage of child support is paid by men who have not had a long term relationship with the child's mother?

 

[KingMerv00]

That's the best I've seen it put.

My response is the same to you as it was to crimresearch: You are making the assumption that child support isn't being paid while the parents "wrangle over paternity". The presumptive father (the husband) whould pay until he proves his case. Problem solved.

Because child support for non-related children comes up every time someone mentions feminism, I would like to see some numbers. What percentage of child support is paid (knowingly, of course) to men who are not the child's father? While we are at it, it would also be good to know what percentage of child support is paid by men who have not had a long term relationship with the child's mother?

I doubt it is very common but digging around for data misses his point. He wants to know why feminists don't care. The answer is "They do, they just talk about other things." It's like being asked why Randi doesn't care about the nasty case of food poisoning I had last week and then responding with stats from the USDA.

 

[bookitty]

Reading these questions makes me think that the questions give bias results when it comes to male victimisation. Basically these questions, coupled with their definition of what rape is would mean that certain situations of female on male rape, such as a woman forcing a man to penetrate her, don't count as rape.

This is the reason why feminists and allies have been fighting for years to get legal and official description of rape changed. This year, the FBI will finally change the definition of rape from "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will." to a much more broad definition of penetration without consent, regardless of gender and including objects.

Although that is a step in the right direction, it is still inadequate and many acts of rape will not be defined as such in the records of the FBI.

 

[AvalonXQ]

This year, the FBI will finally change the definition of rape from "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will." to a much more broad definition of penetration without consent, regardless of gender and including objects.

I'd be interested to see the new definition. Does it still specify penetration of whom by whom? That's how you miss female-on-male -- by missing that the exact same sexual act can be a rape in either direction based on incapacitance and coercion.

Oh, and by the way -- men's rights advocates have been fighting for this as well.

 

[bookitty]

My response is the same to you as it was to crimresearch: You are making the assumption that child support isn't being paid while the parents "wrangle over paternity". The presumptive father (the husband) whould pay until he proves his case. Problem solved.



I doubt it is very common but digging around for data misses his point. He wants to know why feminists don't care. The answer is "They do, they just talk about other things." It's like asking Randi why he doesn't care about the nasty case of food poisoning I had last week.

Actually, it is far more disingenuous than that. It's like asking someone who donates to Doctors Without Borders why they don't care about child hunger in war-torn or drought-ridden areas. The two are different but related, caring about one implies caring about the other.

The court system right now is biased because it relies on out-dated gender stereotypes (Women are mothers, fathers are providers.) Feminism is working to do away with those gender roles so that neither nurturing nor providing is a gender issue. The end result will be more fairness in the court system.

ETA: Because we don't have the numbers on this, there is no way to know what is really happening. Perhaps the presumptive father pays child support until he proves that he is not the parent at which point child support is no longer due, is due because he lived as the child's father for x amount of years, or is due regardless of paternity. Without data there is no way to answer this question.

 

[bookitty]

I'd be interested to see the new definition. Does it still specify penetration of whom by whom? That's how you miss female-on-male -- by missing that the exact same sexual act can be a rape in either direction based on incapacitance and coercion.

Oh, and by the way -- men's rights advocates have been fighting for this as well.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/advisory-policy-board

Below is the revised rape definition:

“Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

As you can see, it is still inadequate.

 

[KingMerv00]

I'd be interested to see the new definition.

But not interested enough to look it up.

“Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

Oh, and by the way -- men's rights advocates have been fighting for this as well.

You mention something about women and someone absolutely ALWAYS says "Yea, but men..."

Edit: D'oh. Female ninja'd by bookitty.

Edit #2: Yes, I know. Men can ninja too.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Also, I don't think I ever answered the OP question.

"Why so much hatred for feminism?" Repeated malicious persecution of males by the "feminists" in college. Mean, nasty, public stuff. Stuff in the college newspaper, as well as around campus.

And never a word from a women's studies professor or other "feminist" against it. Never any indication but that the abhorrent conduct of these women under the guise of the college feminist organization was precisely representative of what "feminism" is all about.

College is the place you learn about those sort of ideas, and the conduct of groups in college still defines a lot of my attitudes towards the ideals associated with those groups even today.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You mention something about women and someone absolutely ALWAYS says "Yea, but men..."

Who said anything about women vs. men? Or are you mistakenly associating just women with feminism and just men with men's rights?

I thought it was an interesting point that the rape definition is something that both feminists and MRAs have been trying to change. It's a rare point, similar to the "gendered occupations" thing, that both groups have been equally vocal about.

 

[bookitty]

Also, I don't think I ever answered the OP question.

"Why so much hatred for feminism?" Repeated malicious persecution of males by the "feminists" in college. Mean, nasty, public stuff. Stuff in the college newspaper, as well as around campus.

And never a word from a women's studies professor or other "feminist" against it. Never any indication but that the abhorrent conduct of these women under the guise of the college feminist organization was precisely representative of what "feminism" is all about.

College is the place you learn about those sort of ideas, and the conduct of groups in college still defines a lot of my attitudes towards the ideals associated with those groups even today.

What year was this? Do you have links to any of the stuff that was in the papers?

I get what you're saying. I know I've mentioned my psycho women's studies prof. ("Long hair is just another way that men tie women to the bed!!!") but she was universally accepted as an outlier, even by the most feminism-embracing students.

 

[crimresearch]

You are making the assumption that child support isn't being paid while the parents "wrangle over paternity". The presumptive father (the husband) whould pay until he proves his case. Problem solved.

That's horsecrap. I'm describing the real world to you, and you simply can't accept it, so you are spinning a dream world where paying biological fathers are always right there.

 

[crimresearch]

This is the reason why feminists and allies have been fighting for years to get legal and official description of rape changed. This year, the FBI will finally change the definition of rape from "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will." to a much more broad definition of penetration without consent, regardless of gender and including objects.

Although that is a step in the right direction, it is still inadequate and many acts of rape will not be defined as such in the records of the FBI.

Note that the FBI doesn't set the legal definition of rape, statutes do.

What they are changing is simply the category wording that goes along with the statistics. The media blew that up into 'The FBI is changing rape'...

In statutory language, 'Penetration however slight...' has been pretty standard for quite a while.
If someone performed an action that matched the criminal code definition for rape, and the police were called, it got counted as rape in the UCR, regardless of the other language.

 

[KingMerv00]

Who said anything about women vs. men? Or are you mistakenly associating just women with feminism and just men with men's rights?

People aren't being intentionally malicious but there is an annoying pattern forming. Talk about abortion and someone points to you forgot to mention unfair child support. Discuss how 14% of people think men should get preferential hiring treatment and someone implies you don't care about the male suicide rate. Say feminists did their best to change the definition of rape to help men and someone reminds you men's rights groups did it too.

It's like no female topic in this thread is valid unless it is paired with some male topic.

I thought it was an interesting point that the rape definition is something that both feminists and MRAs have been trying to change. It's a rare point, similar to the "gendered occupations" thing, that both groups have been equally vocal about.

And they should be.

 

[bookitty]

You weren't doing anything malicious. I'm just annoyed by the pattern of this thread. Talk about abortion and someone points to you forgot to mention unfair child support. Discuss how 14% of people think men should get preferential hiring treatment Say feminists did their best to change the definition of rape to help men and someone reminds you men's rights groups did it to.

Hi, welcome to discussions about feminism. Just so you know, discussions on racism go the same way. Talk about the incarceration rates of people of color and someone will bring up heart attacks in white males. It's weird.

 

[AvalonXQ]

What year was this? Do you have links to any of the stuff that was in the papers?

The opening years of this century; and no I don't.

I get what you're saying. I know I've mentioned my psycho women's studies prof. ("Long hair is just another way that men tie women to the bed!!!") but she was universally accepted as an outlier, even by the most feminism-embracing students.

Yeah, it's an acknowledged problem.
My attitudes towards other organizations also reflect how they were represented in college. The most compassionate, polite, and articulate students were libertarians and pro-lifers. The most nasty, polarizing, offensive students were the "feminists" and the race-based organizations (black student union, Asian alliance, etc). It's been hard for me to listen to any of those groups going forward with all the misandry and racist rhetoric ringing in my ears.

 

[AvalonXQ]

It's like no female topic in this thread is valid unless it is paired with some male topic.

... but I didn't do that. I didn't add a topic at all...

Eh, whatever. I think some people are going to see sexism in every Rorschach.

 

[KingMerv00]

That's horsecrap. I'm describing the real world to you, and you simply can't accept it, so you are spinning a dream world where paying biological fathers are always right there.

I think you are arguing past me. I was talking to TheJim about a specific legal circumstance. I'm well aware the world is more complicated as a whole.