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Why shouldn't I hate feminists?

While I have nothing against feminism in general, there is a certain brand of feminism I encounter a lot (mainly on the internet) that I hate. A lot of them blog or post on the somethingawful forums. Rebecca Watson is an example (no, not because she was bothered by being propositioned on an elevator before you jump to conclusions). They tend to throw around phrases like patriarchy and "male privilege" around a lot, have a condescending attitude to those not deemed educated on feminist theory (which seems to include a lot of pomo crap) and seem to be susceptible to seeing sexism even when it isn't there. That said I still have a lot of common ground with them and I don't consider them to represent "feminists"/"feminism" as a whole.
 
Are feminists against the male birth control pill? Some seem to think so, I'm unsure.

Here's a possible reason these women don't want male equality in the area of reproductive rights (Link).



Also, remember women don't do that (Link).
 
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bookitty said:
Hi, I'm a feminist. If you're collecting anecdata, why not ask me. My opinion as an individual must surely be just as valid as the various one-offs you've been collecting.
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Sorry, some of them I'm just posting as humor. I didn't mean to offend. :)
 
Naive1000 said:
Are feminists against the male birth control pill? Some seem to think so, I'm unsure.

Here's a possible reason these women don't want male equality in the area of reproductive rights (Link).



Also, remember women don't do that (Link).
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Putting aside that highly disturbing second video, exactly how is your first link about feminism? I'm even willing to overlook that it was an opinion piece in the Dailymail, although I'd advise vetting your sources better. However, the Daily Mail isn't a feminist paper, the author of that article doesn't appear a noted feminist or write on mostly feminists issues. Simply being a woman is not enough to make her 'a feminist'.


As a feminist, I disagree with what she is concerned about in that article, and how she frames the entire issue. I can't think of any but fairly discredited radical feminist theory that would be for what she's saying, and even they would take her to task for the sentence, "In my experience, the stuff of domestic life is jealously guarded by most women." She frames the issue as a woman's reproductive control being taken by men, where that's simply untrue. Male birth control shots would be men taking control of their reproductive rights. Her argument basically boils down to women not being able to exploit and manipulate their men in a couple of ways. I don't know many mainstream feminists who would support her in that.
 
Wow, people sure don't like the Daily Mail here. Can someone point out why, give some back story, or how about a little bit of fact pointing towards their bias.

Oh well, how about this by Angela Phillips (Link) a known feminist about the male pill (Link).

And, I agree the video bothered me too. I couldn't watch it all the way through the first time. But, I posted it because as I said the claim that women don't do that, well here's proof.
 
Naive1000 said:
Wow, people sure don't like the Daily Mail here. Can someone point out why, give some back story, or how about a little bit of fact pointing towards their bias.
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I'm not as well acquainted with them as some others here, so someone else can likely explain it more articulately. From the articles I've been linked to in the past, it isn't so much that they have a bias, but that they'll publish anything from just about anyone using basically any source or even just making things up. On that basis, I don't trust anyone claiming to be this or that on there, and assume that any article is strictly useful only as opinion.

Oh well, how about this by Angela Phillips (Link) a known feminist about the male pill (Link).
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Now that is rather troubling. I think she's making the same mistake in thinking only of a woman's reproductive rights and not of a man's. It would not surprise me if one could find articles from when the female birth control pill was coming out from misogynists saying the same thing.

And, I agree the video bothered me too. I couldn't watch it all the way through the first time. But, I posted it because as I said the claim that women don't do that, well here's proof.
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Did I miss someone claiming that women don't assault men and boys?
 
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tyr_13 said:
...[snip]... Did I miss someone claiming that women don't assault men and boys?
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I'll have to look through my research, but I do have some of the more mainstream feminists claiming just that (not anyone here that I know of). Something along the line of; it's not really assault if a woman does it, and it wasn't really them assaulting the man/boy it was the oppression of the patriarchy, thus the women was the real victim. Just paraphrasing, but it should be pretty close. Reading things like these, about male victims of female assault and rape, is pretty much the reason I started researching the subject. All the people I know, both men and women, who have been sexually assaulted were assaulted by women.

Here's an article that might make you angry (about this subject). Skip the bold at the top, read the article, then read the bold. Otherwise, you might buy into what I can only see as false statements at the top before you see what was really written and how (Link). The first time I read the article those weren't present.
 
Naive1000 said:
I'll have to look through my research, but I do have some of the more mainstream feminists claiming just that (not anyone here that I know of). Something along the line of; it's not really assault if a woman does it, and it wasn't really them assaulting the man/boy it was the oppression of the patriarchy, thus the women was the real victim. Just paraphrasing, but it should be pretty close. Reading things like these, about male victims of female assault and rape, is pretty much the reason I started researching the subject. All the people I know, both men and women, who have been sexually assaulted were assaulted by women.

Here's an article that might make you angry (about this subject). Skip the bold at the top, read the article, then read the bold. Otherwise, you might buy into what I can only see as false statements at the top before you see what was really written and how (Link). The first time I read the article those weren't present.
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I'm not sure this supports your argument there. So this woman feminist blogs something incredibly stupid and hurtful on a feminist site, quickly gets called out on it, and eventually offers an apology (even though that apology still gets some things terribly wrong), and this is supposed to be indicative of feminism as a movement because? Who do you think was calling her out on it?

But you are correct that it sure upset me a great deal.
 
No, as I said, I would have to look up research on the other feminists: that link was just related to the subject. It's been awhile since I've read those original ones and I'll have to dig them out. As I said, these were quotes from prominent feminists not some random feminist blogger.
 
Maybe the title should have been changed? "Feminist" itself is just too broad a term. You know where feminism is really needed? in the Muslim world.

There is this book- Feminism and Islam:

In an age when Western feminism is continuously undergoing redefinition, the struggles of women in Muslim countries are often overlooked. This volume illustrates how women in Islamic societies have become more actively involved not only in learning their rights under the sharia (Islamic law) but in rereading this law to improve their status and gain increased equality and freedom. Surveying Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt and Arab societies in general, the essays in feminism and Islam focus on such subjects as crimes of honor and the construction of gender in Arab societies; law and the desire for social control; women ad entrepreneurship; family legislation; and the political strategies of feminists in the Islam world.
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Still a long way to go it seems.
 
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That's kind of funny, I was just reading up on similar subject. You should look at Ayaan Hirsi AliWP she's a very brave and strong woman who calls herself a feminist.
 
tyr_13 said:
I said 'ideas', not 'ideals'.
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This seems to have satisfied @Naive1000, so I guess I'll have to be the one to object.

aviolet4u said:
Maybe the title should have been changed? "Feminist" itself is just too broad a term.
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Nailed it in one. There's no such thing as a feminist idea. Or, rather, there are so many feminist ideas, often contradictory, that calling something a feminist idea is practically useless.

I'll explain. If I know that somebody is a Teabagger, or a Republican, or a Truther, or a John Bircher, then I know two things about them. I know the patterns of argumentation and rhetoric that they will use. I also know something about the content of the rhetoric, what the positions are, and what is being argued. I may not have complete, predictive knowledge of everything, but I do have some predictive power, and exceptions are rare.

If I know that someone is a feminist, I also know the patterns of argumentation and rhetorics, which are remarkably consistent. I know nothing about the content. It is completely unpredictable, except inasmuch as it has something to do with women.

Sure, you'll get this or that feminist saying that their ideas represent feminism (c.f. @bookitty) Then, if you find another feminist, they'll also say that their ideas represent feminism, even though these ideas may be diametrically opposed to the other set. Even worse, you'll find lots of feminists who support both sets of ideas. This led to one of the few genuinely unusual and creative rhetorical ploys, the claim that logic itself is an evil, oppressive patriarchal plot.

You don't have to look very hard to find these conflicts or go very far back in time, though it helps to look at the history and see that every wave of feminism has suffered from them.

Nor is it in any sense clear that any one set is "mainstream" and the others "extremist." Would that were true, as all this crap might have been settled at least by the 1920s, when technology came to obviate most of the justifications for a sexual division of labor. There are historical patterns wherein one brand or the another comes out on top for a time, but this couldn't have happened unless the various brands were roughly evenly matched.
 
Naive1000 said:
Sorry, some of them I'm just posting as humor. I didn't mean to offend. :)
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I think the horse may already have bolted from that particular barn.

Naive1000 said:
Wow, people sure don't like the Daily Mail here. Can someone point out why, give some back story, or how about a little bit of fact pointing towards their bias.
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The Daily Mail doesn't have the best track record for accuracy in their reporting. Someone once made a list of all the things that the Daily Mail has reported can cure cancer, and compared it with a list of all the things that the Daily Mail has reported can cause cancer. There was about a 60% overlap in the two lists.

To cut a long story short, if the Daily Mail reported that the sky was blue, I'd be going outside and taking another good hard look at it.
 
epepke said:
Sure, you'll get this or that feminist saying that their ideas represent feminism (c.f. @bookitty) Then, if you find another feminist, they'll also say that their ideas represent feminism, even though these ideas may be diametrically opposed to the other set. Even worse, you'll find lots of feminists who support both sets of ideas. This led to one of the few genuinely unusual and creative rhetorical ploys, the claim that logic itself is an evil, oppressive patriarchal plot.
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I'm the wrong example of this. I have always said that my views on feminism are my own but that I can't escape the association. Here's an example:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7342084&postcount=188

For the record, I am a feminist and I am part of the group that includes:
The ones who only care about abortion. The ones who only use it to make a point. The ones who think that all sex is rape. The ones who are pro-porn. the ones who are anti-porn. The ones who hate men. The ones who only say they are feminist so that they can insult other women and get a pat on the head for being a "good" feminist. The ones who defend abortion clinics. The ones who are pro-choice but hate abortion. The ones who argue on the internet. The ones who never say a word. The ones who know every definition and toss it out in every conversation. The ones who have no clue but are learning. The ones who will never have clue. The ones who inspire. The ones who drive everyone away.

Basically, I am part of the group that includes every feminist that ever was or will be. There are plenty that I admire and plenty that I despise with a passion. Because I believe in equal rights, I will be linked to them. I can't and don't want to control what other feminists say. If I don't agree, I can speak up but I can't kick anybody out of the club. Things that I say and do will have consequence. Qualifiers don't divorce me from responsibility. identify as feminist and you're speaking for all of them. There's not really a lot of choice in that.
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