Why shouldn't I hate feminists?

[tyr_13]

So the ideas that bookitty and I advanced earlier were not really feminism because they dealt with an area where men are discriminated (in the sense that it's not socially/business acceptable) against?

 

[Naive1000]

I think the simple answer here is that if you could make a case that men are discriminated against in the matter of rights, employment, legal protection and so forth, then you could make a case for masculinism even if the discrimination were debatable.

Oh, that's easy to do. Start here: Masculism^WP. Then lets look at some more concrete examples. Like double standards here:

There is a sharp disconnect between two prank stories this morning. When Tyrell Morton put an inflatable girl in the girl’s bathroom at his high school, he ended up with a felony charge and a potential jail sentence of eight years. However, when three eighth-grade girls from Dunbar Middle school in Florida tackled an 11-year-old boy and stripped him naked (and proceeded to videotape him and taunt him), they were let go as a simple prank in bad taste.
In the video, the girls stop the boy to chat and then hold him down, strip him naked, and mock him. The video was put on YouTube.(Link)

Lets talk sexual offenses:

There is something else to consider as well. Three studies from 1979, 1984 and 1993 found that there is an alarmingly high rate of sexual abuse by females in the backgrounds of rapists, sex offenders and sexually aggressive men – 66%[xvi], 59%[xvii], and 80%.[xviii]

Lastly I wanted to quote Denov one more time. She further stated “that professional minimization or disbelief of victims’ allegations of female perpetrated sexual abuse may actually exacerbate the negative effects of the sexual abuse, ultimately inciting secondary victimization.”(Link)

How about divorce:

So why are 90% of divorces initiated by women (she files 70% of the time, and the other 20% of the time, she forces the man to file, due to abuse or adultery on the part of the woman)? ...[snip]... Even if the woman chooses to leave on account of 'boredom', she is still given default custody of the children, which exposes the total hypocrisy of feminist claims that men and women should be treated equally. Furthermore, the man is required to pay 'child support' which is assessed at levels much higher than the direct costs of child care, with the woman facing no burden to prove the funds were spent on the child, and cannot be specified by any pre-nuptial agreement. (Link)

Of course, there's more out there.

Feminism, at least in its non-radical form, has egalitarianism as its goal, but if it's women's rights that are coming up short, then it's women's rights that need to be addressed.

I call B.S. on the egalitarianism. That may be feminist propaganda, but the reality of it lies in the legislation passed by feminist groups. Lets start with NOW who fought against equal custody for men (Link), and claimed fathers are abusive (Link) though the DHHS says it's just the opposite [37% of all abuse is perpetrated by just a child's mother, compared to 19.1% for fathers](Link). Boy children are more likely to suffer fatalities from child abuse 60.1% to 39.6% for girls. In all child fatalities mothers are the cause 29.2% of the time compared to fathers 17.1% of the time.

How about the protection of the accused as well as the victim, feminists fought that too (Link), even though false rape claims commonly ruin a man's life. Of course women never make false claims of rape except here, here, here, and here, just as a few examples.

How about on domestic violence. The fought against the release of this report (Link) and even still like to claim that it's only women who suffer from domestic violence (Link). Even going to perverting the definition of domestic violence (Link).

Lets not forget economically (Link). Where professional feminists fought against the "sexism" of helping men.

Lastly, of course, women should never go to jail according to feminists even for murder (Link) and (Link).

You present a kind of double bind if you label as sexism any effort that is focused on the problem at hand rather than at the ideal. So it's sexism to push for women's rights, unless you append "and men's too," and presumably it was racism to campaign against lynching and miscegenation laws and segregation unless you say, "oh, and don't lynch white guys either."

When gay activists pushed for the right to marry, they did not have to push for the right of straight people to marry too. I don't think that was "gayism" on their part. Because guess what, we already could! Advocacy is wasted lip service to those who do not need it.

This is just inflammatory and ignores the fact that all the issues can be addressed and that neither set of issues need to be neglected. This is just silly and lacks logic. It also ignores the fact that by helping with men and women's issues we create a better society for everyone (that means women, gays, and all those other groups out there). And of course (disposable) men need no help. Unless, you count the drop in graduation rates and college enrollment, the skyrocketing suicide rates in men, the drop in marriage rates, single parent homes (no fathers), and legal double standards. No help needed at all.

Back in Kindergarten we got that "do it for everyone or no-one" stuff, and it's a fine idea at a certain level, but it's not a very efficient way to address real problems.

Guess what, I'm suggesting we just get more, do more, and give it to everyone while ignoring none.

 

[bookitty]

Oh, that's easy to do. Start here: Masculism^WP. Then lets look at some more concrete examples. Like double standards here: Lets talk sexual offenses: How about divorce: Of course, there's more out there.

I call B.S. on the egalitarianism. That may be feminist propaganda, but the reality of it lies in the legislation passed by feminist groups. Lets start with NOW who fought against equal custody for men (Link), and claimed fathers are abusive (Link) though the DHHS says it's just the opposite [37% of all abuse is perpetrated by just a child's mother, compared to 19.1% for fathers](Link). Boy children are more likely to suffer fatalities from child abuse 60.1% to 39.6% for girls. In all child fatalities mothers are the cause 29.2% of the time compared to fathers 17.1% of the time.

How about the protection of the accused as well as the victim, feminists fought that too (Link), even though false rape claims commonly ruin a man's life. Of course women never make false claims of rape except here, here, here, and here, just as a few examples.

How about on domestic violence. The fought against the release of this report (Link) and even still like to claim that it's only women who suffer from domestic violence (Link). Even going to perverting the definition of domestic violence (Link).

Lets not forget economically (Link). Where professional feminists fought against the "sexism" of helping men.

Lastly, of course, women should never go to jail according to feminists even for murder (Link) and (Link).

This is just inflammatory and ignores the fact that all the issues can be addressed and that neither set of issues need to be neglected. This is just silly and lacks logic. It also ignores the fact that by helping with men and women's issues we create a better society for everyone (that means women, gays, and all those other groups out there). And of course (disposable) men need no help. Unless, you count the drop in graduation rates and college enrollment, the skyrocketing suicide rates in men, the drop in marriage rates, single parent homes (no fathers), and legal double standards. No help needed at all.

Guess what, I'm suggesting we just get more, do more, and give it to everyone while ignoring none.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to show with the links above. They are kind of weird. Like the divorce one uses an unsubstantiated quote from another blog as evidence. And some others are kinda sketchy.

But what you're trying to show is that both men and women have gender-specific issues and you are implying that men are being harmed as well. I agree, men face unique challenges.

Where these challenges are caused by the innate problems associate with traditional gender roles, it is addressed within feminism. Completely equal wages, promotions based on talent, parental responsibility and rights, parental leave, child care, consensual sexual interaction, complete physical autonomy, compassionate aid for victims of spousal abuse including temporary shelter if necessary, compassionate aid for victims of sexual abuse, equal focus on math, science, art and literature for school children, and so on - that's the goal. To have all of that applied equally without regard to gender. (with one exception - medical. In some cases men and women need sex-specific treatment and treating all human bodies the same doesn't work. But I'm totally for equal medical care.)

That's why I'm a feminist. That's what I am working towards, that's what I look for in a politician, that's what I try to push forward when I vote on issues, or march or donate or what have you.

Now there may be issues that aren't covered on that list that are male only. If they are brought to my attention, I'll keep an eye out for ways to help. But the list above is pretty big and I've only got one human lifespan. My time is short and I have to pick and choose my battles.

 

[Naive1000]

What I'm saying is, not that feminists themselves but, the organizations represented as feminist are not fighting for equality. They are fighting for preferential treatment on certain issues. Also, while some links are not as exact as others it does not invalidate the claims which are backed by statistics (most have links to the pertinent government statistics and facts - sorry I didn't just link the source material).

Like I've said before, of course, I want to fight for equal rights, but only when they're truly equal. I hear way too often that men don't have any issues. Men are privileged thus no one should care what happens to them, as they deserve. And for being "privileged" men sure do get undervalued, suffer, and die a lot for it. This is just creating a resentment for feminists and the cause of equality. Many young men feel that feminists stand for anything but equality. And all too often I hear how men/boys are bad evil abusers, well I'm not. No one I know is. Abusers are a small percentage of men and women, so why villainize men as a whole.

Also, you mention shelters. How many federally funded male shelters are there compared to female shelters? Don't men pay taxes too? Why is there a constant push to help girls in school when it's boys doing horribly at the moment? I'll have to find the link but feminist organizations fought against any funding to look into why boys are having problems in schools, as girls should be the focus. I think it was feminist Christina Hoff Sommers^WP who pointed out this fact.

I'm happy you're fighting for equality in your own way, so am I. I just think too many people out there want to avoid the truth that men can and do suffer. Even when it is acknowledged it's minimized. I'm tired of the idea that men are a disposable part of society. Both men and women should be valued for who and what they are.

Just a little more info: gender pay myth (Link) and (Link).
Actual research on why boys are falling behind (Link).
Double standards: boy 6 arrested for playing doctor (Link) and wife wants ex-husbands settlement for his 25-year false imprisonment (Link).
Sex trade of boys: Afghan boys as sex slaves (Link) and homeless boy prostitutes (Link).
Legal stupidity: boy arrested for farting (Link) and boy arrested for burping (Link).

ETA: Messed up feminists (Link)

 

[Naive1000]

A woman's perspective on the disposable male:



For every hundred ... (Link)

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

What I'm saying is, not that feminists themselves but, the organizations represented as feminist are not fighting for equality. They are fighting for preferential treatment on certain issues. Also, while some links are not as exact as others it does not invalidate the claims which are backed by statistics (most have links to the pertinent government statistics and facts - sorry I didn't just link the source material).

Like I've said before, of course, I want to fight for equal rights, but only when they're truly equal. I hear way too often that men don't have any issues. Men are privileged thus no one should care what happens to them, as they deserve. And for being "privileged" men sure do get undervalued, suffer, and die a lot for it. This is just creating a resentment for feminists and the cause of equality. Many young men feel that feminists stand for anything but equality. And all too often I hear how men/boys are bad evil abusers, well I'm not. No one I know is. Abusers are a small percentage of men and women, so why villainize men as a whole.

Also, you mention shelters. How many federally funded male shelters are there compared to female shelters? Don't men pay taxes too? Why is there a constant push to help girls in school when it's boys doing horribly at the moment? I'll have to find the link but feminist organizations fought against any funding to look into why boys are having problems in schools, as girls should be the focus. I think it was feminist Christina Hoff Sommers^WP who pointed out this fact.

I'm happy you're fighting for equality in your own way, so am I. I just think too many people out there want to avoid the truth that men can and do suffer. Even when it is acknowledged it's minimized. I'm tired of the idea that men are a disposable part of society. Both men and women should be valued for who and what they are.

Just a little more info: gender pay myth (Link) and (Link).
Actual research on why boys are falling behind (Link).
Double standards: boy 6 arrested for playing doctor (Link) and wife wants ex-husbands settlement for his 25-year false imprisonment (Link).
Sex trade of boys: Afghan boys as sex slaves (Link) and homeless boy prostitutes (Link).
Legal stupidity: boy arrested for farting (Link) and boy arrested for burping (Link).

ETA: Messed up feminists (Link)

Err. Some of those links do you less than no credit..

 

[wobs]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to show with the links above. They are kind of weird. Like the divorce one uses an unsubstantiated quote from another blog as evidence. And some others are kinda sketchy.

They are all issues that are not only covered in blogs, but books such as Warren Farrell, Hoff Summers, etc. And websites that are not blogs. Men are still the disposable sex compared to women.

Where these challenges are caused by the innate problems associate with traditional gender roles, it is addressed within feminism. Completely equal wages, promotions based on talent, parental responsibility and rights, parental leave, child care, consensual sexual interaction, complete physical autonomy, compassionate aid for victims of spousal abuse including temporary shelter if necessary, compassionate aid for victims of sexual abuse, equal focus on math, science, art and literature for school children, and so on - that's the goal. To have all of that applied equally without regard to gender. (with one exception - medical. In some cases men and women need sex-specific treatment and treating all human bodies the same doesn't work. But I'm totally for equal medical care.)

That's why I'm a feminist.

I have highlighted the equal pay, as it appears you want to see the gender pay gap reduced to zero. I hope you realise the gender pay gap is down to a whole host of issues not involving discrimination. And yet feminist groups are often trying to get the issue pushed as if it is.

Not only that but powerful fiminists are doing it. Politicians, well funded womens groups etc are pushing for more "equal pay" for women when it isn't needed, and hasn't been needed for decades.

It maybe you are aware of the above, but one never knows until one asks.

As for the medical issue: Yes some issues are gender specific, but men are really short changed, and the feminist movement is largely to blame:
http://mensightmagazine.com/Library/genmedbias.htm

As Farrell has pointed out, men are more likely to die from disease than women throughout the age ranges (apart from people older than 75 when there are far fewer men left to die than women anyway).

http://www.menweb.org/farrheal.htm

 

[Naive1000]

Err. Some of those links do you less than no credit..

Such as, and what exactly do you mean? I'm just providing information. If you have valid sources that contradict these please feel free to post them. I'm willing to look at all valid information and criticism.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Such as, and what exactly do you mean? I'm just providing information. If you have valid sources that contradict these please feel free to post them. I'm willing to look at all valid information and criticism.

Citing prisonplanet, for one. I'll defer a longer criticism until I'm home and not browsing on a phone.

 

[Naive1000]

Why? I've never been there before it was just the first link when I went searching for the story. Is prisonplanet a bad site?


ETA: Plus it had links to the ACLU and American Bar Association, so it seemed a valid news source.

 

[tyr_13]

Feminists groups deal with feminists issues, that doesn't mean that feminist members of feminists groups don't also want to deal with other issues and don't work for them as well.

I'm not about to defend all feminists or feminists groups, but broad brushes are not in order here.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Just a little more info: gender pay myth (Link) and (Link).

Links OK, support conclusion.

Actual research on why boys are falling behind (Link).

Link INVALID, does not support conclusion. It's just an announcement of the study - I'd like to see the actual study..

Double standards: boy 6 arrested for playing doctor (Link) and wife wants ex-husbands settlement for his 25-year false imprisonment (Link).

.. the first link is a blog, and blatantly biased. Following the link back to the story..

.. it does show there are other conflating factors. And other things he did. You know, I think this is a misleading link, so I can't even support this as an premise.. for whatever it is you're trying to support. The last is the Daily Fail.

And in it, interestingly enough..
"Her ex-husband, a roofer, was jailed in 1982 for a two day crime spree involving several sexual assaults."
And they divorced in 1991. It has SOME legal foundation (and is sorta typical for that kind of divorce.)

Sex trade of boys: Afghan boys as sex slaves (Link) and homeless boy prostitutes (Link).

Well known, but I would like to ask you about the sex slave trade in females too... This is kind of missing the point, and as such, does not favor.. whatever your conclusion is.

Legal stupidity: boy arrested for farting (Link) and boy arrested for burping (Link).

OK, the minute I really want to start wondering about you.

Second bit: Prison Planet. [Mainstream sources have described Jones as a conservative[4][5][6][7] and as a right-wing conspiracy theorist.[8][9][10][11]]

No prizes for guessing who owns PrisonPlanet.

Following the link to the Huffington Post (!), we see that it's actualy a problem with the school discipling troubled children.

First bit: Arrested for disruption of school. The link also says:

"NOVEMBER 21--A 12-year-old Florida student was arrested earlier this month after he "deliberately passed gas to disrupt the class," according to police. The child, who was also accused of shutting off the computers of classmates at Stuart's Spectrum Jr./Sr. High School, was busted November 4 for disruption of a school function. A Martin County Sheriff's Office report notes that the 4' 11" offender admitted that he "continually disrupted his classroom environment by breaking wind and shutting off several computers." The boy, whose name was redacted from the police report released today, was turned over to his mother following the arrest. The young perp turned 13 on November 15. (2 pages)

The time for this is a MAX of 60 days/$500, looking at the punishment (having to find it, funnily enough this site doesn't cite sources. I cannot confirm he was actually, you know, in jail, just arrested until released. And this isn't a huge deal, so ... !)

ALSO, BOTH are specific to general fallacies, and most likely are equivocation fallacies.

ETA: Messed up feminists (Link)

I can find crazy people in near any group..


Suggestion: When you said you were devils advocate, don't then just look for stuff that suggests your point without actually MAKING SURE it supports your point at the bare minimum.

 

[bookitty]

Feminists groups deal with feminists issues, that doesn't mean that feminist members of feminists groups don't also want to deal with other issues and don't work for them as well.

I'm not about to defend all feminists or feminists groups, but broad brushes are not in order here.

True, for example in the US we have a pay-for-prison system that is untenable. It primarily affects young men of color and is a humanist and not a feminist issue. Although prison reform is not a main focus, it is on the list. I keep on eye on what California and Los Angeles are doing. if I see potential abuses or solutions, I send a letter to the correct politician*, vote on the issue and try to inform as many people as possible.

If I am discussing feminism, that doesn't come up. Not because I don't care but because it doesn't fall under feminism.

*btw, letters sent by mail have more impact than email.

 

[bookitty]

They are all issues that are not only covered in blogs, but books such as Warren Farrell, Hoff Summers, etc. And websites that are not blogs. Men are still the disposable sex compared to women.



I have highlighted the equal pay, as it appears you want to see the gender pay gap reduced to zero. I hope you realise the gender pay gap is down to a whole host of issues not involving discrimination. And yet feminist groups are often trying to get the issue pushed as if it is.

Not only that but powerful fiminists are doing it. Politicians, well funded womens groups etc are pushing for more "equal pay" for women when it isn't needed, and hasn't been needed for decades.

It maybe you are aware of the above, but one never knows until one asks.

As for the medical issue: Yes some issues are gender specific, but men are really short changed, and the feminist movement is largely to blame:
http://mensightmagazine.com/Library/genmedbias.htm

As Farrell has pointed out, men are more likely to die from disease than women throughout the age ranges (apart from people older than 75 when there are far fewer men left to die than women anyway).

http://www.menweb.org/farrheal.htm

When I say equal pay, I mean that everyone should be paid for their contribution and not for their gender. I am perfectly aware that some women will not benefit from that. That's fine, that is absolutely normal.

One of the reasons why some women will not get a raise as quickly is because they are also responsible for child-care or perceived to be. In a more egalitarian world, people would naturally assume that both parents would have responsibilities outside the office. In this way, more men would be able to leave a little early to pick children up or watch a soccer game and women would be seen as able to stay late when necessary.

These little imbalances and preconceived notions are making it more difficult for both sexes to balance work and home efficiently. We need more choices for everyone.

 

[Naive1000]

@KoihimeNakamura: Let's see on the first link you site as invalid, it was there just to point out that there's a major problem with the education of boys, at the moment, not an in-depth look at the theories of why. But, if you want the study it can be found here (http://bul.sagepub.com/content/92/2/111.short This is a pay site just FYI).

On the 6-year old here are more comprehensive sources (Link), (Link), and (Link). As to the falsely imprisoned man you bring up, "Her ex-husband, a roofer, was jailed in 1982 for a two day crime spree involving several sexual assaults.", those were the false allegations he received the settlement for (Link). Here's another source (Link) and here (Link) since you don't like the Daily Mail. Since I'm from the US, I have no idea what you mean by the "Daily Fail", but feel free to enlighten me. The point was that it's scummy and that the man spent half his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit and then this crap. That's my point.

In the sex slave link you make my point for me, "Well known, but I would like to ask you about the sex slave trade in females too", not once can it just be about the subject. It always has to revert to, "what about the females?" But, I can't tell you the number of times I've been told to shut-up if I bring up male victims. You state well know, to who? Also, there's a plenty of research on the female sex trade, news reports, organizations fighting against it, but you never here about the male victims, I wonder why? Just do a little Google search "female slave trade" versus "male slave trade". See the difference?

And, I don't understand how pointing out that homeless boys are having to resort to prostitution or being forced into it doesn't help my point. Where's your logic on that? I'm proving that boys are victims too and ignored ones at that. All the information on the page is sourced strait from government documents or studies linked in the article. So, what are you trying to say? Male suffering doesn't count?

On the two other links, the farting and burping arrest ones, my point is that we're criminalizing silly and normal childhood behavior and it's ridiculous. No kid should be arrested for these things, even for disrupting class. It's just stupid. If teachers and school officials can't handle this level of disruption, by kids, then they should not be working in our schools. What ever happened to calling parents or forcing a kid to stay after school? Why are the police ever required at a school except in the cases of extreme violence and the possession of weapons or drugs (even then good counseling is better than the police). Also, I've looked and found no cases where these same zero-tolerance policies are used on girls. This is indicative of the double standard. Go ahead and search the only time the police are called on girls is as I listed above violence, weapons, or drugs. And even then the ones I did follow said they led to no charges being pressed, in the male cases just the opposite.

As, to Jones and prisonplanet I've never heard of him and while he may be a conspiracy theorist, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I wouldn't trust the source either, but it's an easy search to find plenty more on the same topic without even trying. The ACLU and Bar were linked in the article making it easy to go to better source thus not invalidating my point on the stupidity of the charges. Also, if you make the claim that no girls do these sort of things in school I would direct you to YouTube where you can quickly disabuse yourself of that notion. To your final point that it was a nothing fine, I'm guessing that you've never been arrested before. It's scary and traumatic and nothing a kid should ever have to go through with out some major cause. To you it may be nothing, but I disagree. [And, just so you know that I'm not some major criminal; I was arrested for attempted suicide, brought before a judge, and committed. But, I've already admitted to severe depression elsewhere on this forum so no big news there.]

As to them being related to a fallacy in my argument, well first you'd have to know which of my arguments it goes to. In the case of the above, they just to show the failure of schools in even their ability to handle simple things without involving the police and criminalizing natural child behavior. If the laws now were applied to most of our parents they would all be in jail. I can't think of one who doesn't have some story about fighting, pranks, or even right out sexist behavior.

"I can find crazy people in near any group.." Yes, so can I, but most don't hold positions of power in the movement they claim represents "equal rights". Such as:

Laila Namdarkhan (screen name “yabawife”), a well known feminist activist who was instrumental in passing legislation in the U.K. Regarding the mental health of women in prisons;

Who advocates aborting male fetuses and violence against men. Now there's fighting for equality .

 

[bookitty]

In the sex slave link you make my point for me, "Well known, but I would like to ask you about the sex slave trade in females too", not once can it just be about the subject. It always has to revert to, "what about the females?" But, I can't tell you the number of times I've been told to shut-up if I bring up male victims. You state well know, to who? Also, there's a plenty of research on the female sex trade, news reports, organizations fighting against it, but you never here about the male victims, I wonder why? Just do a little Google search "female slave trade" versus "male slave trade". See the difference?

These are incredibly important issues. Neither of them get the attention (and more importantly the resources) they deserve. If you go to websites that raise funds for awareness of sex-trafficking and/or seek to rescue victims, the victims are primarily seen as female. The attitude seems to be that resources are limited and female victims are the majority. Focus on the greater problem first. This is frustrating. The goal should be to abolish sex trafficking in general.

But there is only so much that can be done with limited funds. I have small personal experience with this. When I've worked at soup kitchens, the work is the contribution. I can't give more than that, no matter how great the need, because I would beggar myself. There is always so much greater need but I don't have the resources to respond to it.

At this time, there are few solutions and far too few resources to address very horrible problems - Teen homelessness, forced prostitution, sex-trafficking, child slave trade, child soldiers, and other extreme abuses. Anyone who cares deeply about these issues has felt despair and frustration - there is too much apathy and too little action. They can become protective of the topic, fearing that a change of subject will deny these victims even scant recognition, although they know that it has no immediate impact.

I've been guilty of this myself.

 

[epepke]

Feminists groups deal with feminists issues, that doesn't mean that feminist members of feminists groups don't also want to deal with other issues and don't work for them as well.

I'm not about to defend all feminists or feminists groups, but broad brushes are not in order here.

Trouble is that there are two sets of broad brushes here.

One is the one I think you are mentioning, that feminism is overall defined by the anti-egalitarian, radical nasties.

The other is that feminism is overall defined by the egalitarian, liberal good people.

Neither is completely accurate, though both have elements of accuracy. Usually, though, only one is recognized as a "broad brush," and usually by people who have emotional investment in the other broad brush. (Not that I'm accusing you or anyone in particular of doing that; just that I've seen it happen a lot.)

This makes discussion somewhat between rather difficult and impossible. The loser always seems to be the liberal, egalitarian form.

 

[Naive1000]

Just to lighten the mood a bit, this is how radical feminists want sex to be (when it's allowed).

 

[tyr_13]

Trouble is that there are two sets of broad brushes here.

One is the one I think you are mentioning, that feminism is overall defined by the anti-egalitarian, radical nasties.

The other is that feminism is overall defined by the egalitarian, liberal good people.

Neither is completely accurate, though both have elements of accuracy. Usually, though, only one is recognized as a "broad brush," and usually by people who have emotional investment in the other broad brush. (Not that I'm accusing you or anyone in particular of doing that; just that I've seen it happen a lot.)

This makes discussion somewhat between rather difficult and impossible. The loser always seems to be the liberal, egalitarian form.

Feminists themselves obviously aren't all egalitarian, liberal, good people obviously. I've shared some stories that show that. However, we can judge feminist ideas on their merits.

 

[Naive1000]

Feminists themselves obviously aren't all egalitarian, liberal, good people obviously. I've shared some stories that show that. However, we can judge feminist ideas on their merits.

I tend to disagree, I believe we should judge people/groups on what they do, not their ideals or what they claim. Ideals are great, but only if you live by them.