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Why settlements?

Cleopatra said:
What GOD initials stand for?
The history of Gaza is always blamed on the zionists and their "god given rights"...as in:
Is the deal that God told them so?
Well actually GOD didn't tell the Israeli government to build the first army posts in Gaza. A desire to form a buffer zone on Israel's southwestern flank, against Israel's arch enemy Egypt - who had been spearheading the "lets destroy Israel" happy fun countries - was the real catalyst to build the first army posts in Gaza...which obviously later became settlements....

Originally posted by richardm
Is building settlements and putting families there to live the best way to maintain a buffer zone between you and a sworn enemy?
But thats a myth. Israel built army posts in Gaza at first - as a buffer - not settlements with families. Since there was no one to give Gaza back to at that time in history eventually those army posts became settlements.
 
I imagine its a sellers market in the real estate business in Israel proper right now. ;)

If I was a Gaza strip settler, I would have started house hunting the minute the resettlement announcement was made. Not wait til the last freaking minute.

I just hope, for the sake of fairness, that the Israeli government made resettlement money available from the moment the announcement was made.
 
Haaretz editorial

No the messiah is not turning up, no there will be no miracles.

Extortion by sanctity

The High Court of Justice is to rule in the coming days on a petition by the rabbi of the settlement of Elei Sinai, Yishai Bar-Chen, who is asking the state to move the synagogue building in its entirety from the Gaza Strip to within the Green Line. This is a disingenuous petition which, like other petitions of the settlers, makes sophisticated use of liberal principles like individual and community rights in order to carry out deranged messianic acts.

The walls of the synagogues, their floors, roofs and any other part of the structure in which people pray, are neither sacred nor sacrosanct. There is no reason not to take the buildings apart, sell them or make any other use of them the state sees fit. In any case, the communities will bring out the synagogue's sacred objects and memorial plaques. But moving entire buildings just because they served for a time as synagogues will create a dangerous precedent that will show up the weakness of the institution of statehood in the face of the settlers' emotional blackmail.

This blackmail is in operation all across the ritual board that stems from the teachings of the Yesha rabbis, Chabad and the like. They have sanctified not only the furrows of the earth, but the trees and the rocks. Neveh Dekalim is suddenly defined as a "holy place." The religious college may not be touched because it contains sacred objects, abandoning trees planted in Gush Katif is a serious infraction of halakha (Jewish law), for which transgressors will be punished in the world to come, and on and on with other inventions of this ilk, in the twilight zone between the devotion of the gullible and the simple, and cynical exploitation by religious politicians of their religion and their religiosity.

The exploitation of the objects is nothing compared to the repulsive and well advertised exploitation of the worship of God. Leading this line, together with the extremists of the Gush, are the thousands of infiltrators who came to the Gaza Strip - they and their rabbis. They make sure to show up for morning prayers just when the army has to open the gate, to call for grace after meals or afternoon prayers just when it is time to pack or get on the bus. They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around.
 
I dont have much sympathy for the hold outs. They are causeing their own greif. Its not like they are being tossed into the streets. They should move on for the good of their country.

The whole situation really smacks of irony. Mugging for the cameras with a poor me look, crying about this great injustice. Where have I seen that before??? Oh yeah, from the palistinians. They are both the same.
 
I do feel sympathy for the settlers in the sense that they are feeling genuine pain, but I think those who put them up to it deserve the real anger, not the Palestinians. They are just as angry at the deception as anything else.

"jews don't evict jews"? Well, yes, they do.
 
Cleopatra said:
I don't believe that but this is a discussion for a different thread and maybe for the philosophy forum.
I think it is relevant because peace is the desired end result of the Gaza pullout, isn't it?

I see Peace as a " building" process that is very much related and depended on the notion of an open society and full democracy. Note that this comes from somebody like me who is tad totalitarian in nature but I admit the truth.
So, your theory is that throwing more cultures together and enforcing democracy will solve problems caused by cultural diversity to begin with? I say enforcing because democracy doesn't just happen by magic.

For Ariel Sharon and his generation and for many jewish people- especially of askenazim origin- the notion of open society is unthinkable.

We owe Ariel Sharon and his alikes the existence of Israel because Europeans sent the Jews in Middle East to get slaughtered by the Arabs or at worse, to become their agents. Nothing of those happened. It was the iron fist that helped us survive but Peace needs more than Iron Fists.

And this is what you, Republicans, seem to miss :p
Hey, it beats not having any solution at all... :p Or would you care to elaborate on what that "more" is, exactly?

I'm curious. Why is it OK to cleanse the Gaze strip of a certain ethnic group, but on the other hand Isreal must become an open society if peace is to prevail? Granted, these are "illegal" settlers, but what if we Californians suddenly decided to remove all Mexicans who settled here illegally to begin with? Certain parts of Southern California would suddenly seem to be barely populated for starters. :D
 
peptoabysmal said:

I'm curious. Why is it OK to cleanse the Gaze strip of a certain ethnic group, but on the other hand Isreal must become an open society if peace is to prevail? Granted, these are "illegal" settlers, but what if we Californians suddenly decided to remove all Mexicans who settled here illegally to begin with? Certain parts of Southern California would suddenly seem to be barely populated for starters. :D

That's the whole issue, isn't it. From the start, Zionism was plan to create a state for Jews. What if all the Mexicans who came to California had the intention of making Mexico a Mexican state, all Native californians to leave.
 
a_unique_person said:
That's the whole issue, isn't it. From the start, Zionism was plan to create a state for Jews. What if all the Mexicans who came to California had the intention of making Mexico a Mexican state, all Native californians to leave.
Were you aware that there are those who advocate just that....and more. For example, the (primarily student) organization MECHA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan) has that as an explicit goal:
"General membership shall consist of any student who accepts, believes and works for the goals and objectives of MEChA, including the liberation of AZTLAN, meaning self-determination of our people in this occupied state and the physical liberation of our land."
Look for "Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo" to see what they are really advocating.
 
a_unique_person said:
That's the whole issue, isn't it. From the start, Zionism was plan to create a state for Jews. What if all the Mexicans who came to California had the intention of making Mexico a Mexican state, all Native californians to leave.

It would still be wrong to kill them for it. Period.
 
a_unique_person said:
That's the whole issue, isn't it. From the start, Zionism was plan to create a state for Jews. What if all the Mexicans who came to California had the intention of making Mexico a Mexican state, all Native californians to leave.

La Voz de Aztlán ("The Voice of Aztlán") is the webzine of the Nation of Aztlán, a secessionist organization headquartered in Whittier, California, United States. Its stated goal is the formation of Aztlán as a country containing both modern Mexico and the entirety of the U.S. states of Texas, New Mexico, California, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, and parts of Oklahoma.

From Wikipedia .

So can I start killing Mexicans now?
 
No, really. Here we got some hispanics who are openly claiming they want to take huge parts of the United States and form their own country.

Can I kill them?

Can I organize riots and pograms against them?

Maybe i could hook up with some neo-Nazi's and work out a "final solution" for them? I know that would seem to be racist and all, but my real goal would be nationalism, so it would be okay, right?

C'mon! I need a green light here! If it's okay for the Arabs to kill the Jews, how come I can't kill the Mexicans?

Maybe we need to start slow. We could pass laws against selling land to hispanics, that's a good start.

So, anyone from the sensitive left gonna give me their blessing?
 
SezMe said:
Were you aware that there are those who advocate just that....and more. For example, the (primarily student) organization MECHA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan) has that as an explicit goal:

Look for "Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo" to see what they are really advocating.

What percentage of the actual spanish speaking population do they represent? About 0 is my guess.

The real force is the force of demographics. As 'the onion' is now joking on it's 'future issues' page, in 50 years time the majority language of the south west of the USA will probably be Spanish anyway.

If there was any actual attempt to make California a seperate state, you might see the arms being used.

The Mexicans moving to California want what the US offers, that is, more wealth, stability, less corruption, etc. If they wanted Mexico, they would have stayed there.
 
I've been meaning to ask this before and the "why settlements" question reminded me.

Why leave Gaza?

Practically speaking, I mean. I don't buy the "It's not their land" argument -- in the real world it's their land as long as they can hold on to it. But even so, that's not my question. I mean: What's in it for Israel? The Palestinians are celebrating this as a glorious victory for martyrdom. I have a hard time believing Israel would act to encourage more terrorism without getting something concrete in return.

I've heard some talk of shortening defensive lines. Is that it?
 
What GOD initials stand for?

G.O.D. stands for God Operant Disorder. It is a mental disease effecting up to 90% of the human race to one degree or another.
Symptoms include a wide variety of highly irrational behaviors.

The most seriously infected victims are called prophets. They exhibit such delusions as claiming to have direct communication with a higher being who tells them weird thing such as that they and their descendent's have perpetual claim to a certain miserable piece of desert, or that they should keep there women swathed in tents and locked in the house, or that they should drink grape coolaide laced with poison.

Those slightly less effected merely believe these prophets and blindly follow their insane pronouncements.

The prognosis is generally a gradual decline into superstition, madness, and violence. There is no reliable cure for the condition at this time, though some less deeply infected individuals have been known to respond to an application critical thinking. More severely effected individuals are completely unresponsive to any known treatment.
 
a_unique_person said:
That's the whole issue, isn't it. From the start, Zionism was plan to create a state for Jews. What if all the Mexicans who came to California had the intention of making Mexico a Mexican state, all Native californians to leave.

I admit it was a bit of a stretch comparing illegal immigration with illegal settlements, and these are two different types of issues. From the start, the map of Palestine looked exactly like Israel. Is it possible that both Israelis and Palestinians have changed their goals from what they wanted at the start? I suspect there will be those who cling to these old ideas on both sides.

edited to add: I do remember hearing one of Chavez' activists ranting about taking back California. And a similar article: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25920
 
Yossi Alpher's opinion about Gaza in today's Bitterlemons issue covers me completely.

The Legal Status of Gaza- An evolving Issue( An Israeli overview)

One night I saw on BBC World and in "Hart Talk" the Palestinean co-founder of BitterLemons,Ghassan Khatib. I have been reading his articles but I have never seen him talking. I was impressed. This is the least I can say. Men like him are "the real" danger for Israel not the bombs of the lunatics.

I owe peptoabysmal an answer but tonight it's out of the question. Maybe I must return to the office in order to work less.
 

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