I have been following the Gaza settlement story over the past few days and, frankly, I have no pity for the people that are being forced to move. It seems to me that they choose to settle (with or without the government's tacit or overt approval) in an area that clearly was not part of Isreal. Now it's not part of Isreal. Well, duh. Clearly they are surprised but WTF, they must have known that moving there was a gamble, right? It also seems to me that there is plenty of sh!tty desert in Isreal proper for everyone. Is the deal that God told them so? Well, live and learn. If they are Jews and believe in the Old Testament God they should not be surprised that he pulled a gotcha on them. The whole thing strikes me as more than a bit surreal.
Why settlements?
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After Saturday I was thinking to start a similar thread on the issue to post some thoughts but this thread seems perfect for this task.
I agree and disagree with you the same way. I don't hold accountable the individuals who chose to move and settle in Israel but the " politicians" who travelled the world to trace poor jewish families, promised them the... promised land without explaining them in details that they were taking a risk.
Considering the Jewish History, if there is a God those people, the " politicians" or the carriers of this policy should expect to burn in Hell.
During the last days we have been witnessing the drama of the wandering Jew unfolding for once more and where? In the very land of Israel.
We witness unrooted people being carried away by the Army in the land that our ancestors were dreaming.
I have only one question.
Who will pay for this political crime?( As a crime I name the establishment of the settlements and not the withdrawl)
I agree and disagree with you the same way. I don't hold accountable the individuals who chose to move and settle in Israel but the " politicians" who travelled the world to trace poor jewish families, promised them the... promised land without explaining them in details that they were taking a risk.
Considering the Jewish History, if there is a God those people, the " politicians" or the carriers of this policy should expect to burn in Hell.
During the last days we have been witnessing the drama of the wandering Jew unfolding for once more and where? In the very land of Israel.
We witness unrooted people being carried away by the Army in the land that our ancestors were dreaming.
I have only one question.
Who will pay for this political crime?( As a crime I name the establishment of the settlements and not the withdrawl)
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Cleopatra said:
There's a lot of truth in that. There were a lot of financial incentives given to the settlers--from tax breaks to out-and-out cash--by the Israeli government, groups such as the ZOA, etc. The establishment of these colonies was strategically laid out and funded by Israel and its supporters.
Cleo, what I don't understand is that the "promised land" is not Gaza. Miami maybe but certainly Isreal proper.
I can understand goat fornicating polititions using people as trip wires but still, it was not Isreal. Do (did) maps printed in Isreal ever show it as as part of Isreal proper? It would be as if an American family "settled" on an American base in Germany and then acted surprised when the land reverted to the latest Reich.
It always seemed to me, as a man of color and a Jew (for whom english is a second language) that Isreal sullied their high moral ground with these settlements. Now it is over. Good. Come, my sweet, let us dance a Hora!
I really don't get it.
I can understand goat fornicating polititions using people as trip wires but still, it was not Isreal. Do (did) maps printed in Isreal ever show it as as part of Isreal proper? It would be as if an American family "settled" on an American base in Germany and then acted surprised when the land reverted to the latest Reich.
It always seemed to me, as a man of color and a Jew (for whom english is a second language) that Isreal sullied their high moral ground with these settlements. Now it is over. Good. Come, my sweet, let us dance a Hora!
I really don't get it.
Ed said:
I totally agree with you. I have posted many times in this forum that even the establishment of the "official" Israel was a mistake but now that we have committed it the least we can do is not turning things worse.
Some people believed that they would never been asked to evacuate the settlements. They were proven wrong and the real drama will occur when people will be asked to evacuate the settlements in the West Bank.
Cleopatra said:
The settlers knew they were taking a risk. And it is my understanding that Israel is providing financial compensation for the move. Those who resist the move are also aware of the risk of forfeiting that financial compensation.
Originally posted by Cleopatra
I totally agree with you. I have posted many times in this forum that even the establishment of the "official" Israel was a mistake but now that we have committed it the least we can do is not turning things worse.
How so? Official Isreal was the UN. And we all know that the UN knows best.
Some people believed that they would never been asked to evacuate the settlements. They were proven wrong and the real drama will occur when people will be asked to evacuate the settlements in the West Bank.
Don't they read the papers? I don't know about you but people that knowingly put themselves in jepordy and then cry "foul" do not get a whole lot of sympathy from me. I mean, it appears that these people are really surprised. I saw one guy in the news last night (why do the Isreali's let news teams follow the soldiers around?) complaining that "we were here for 30 years" and that "my son was shot right over there" both of which statements underscore that he was part of the problem and that, as an aside, he is clueless.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you. I have posted many times in this forum that even the establishment of the "official" Israel was a mistake but now that we have committed it the least we can do is not turning things worse.
How so? Official Isreal was the UN. And we all know that the UN knows best.
Some people believed that they would never been asked to evacuate the settlements. They were proven wrong and the real drama will occur when people will be asked to evacuate the settlements in the West Bank.
Don't they read the papers? I don't know about you but people that knowingly put themselves in jepordy and then cry "foul" do not get a whole lot of sympathy from me. I mean, it appears that these people are really surprised. I saw one guy in the news last night (why do the Isreali's let news teams follow the soldiers around?) complaining that "we were here for 30 years" and that "my son was shot right over there" both of which statements underscore that he was part of the problem and that, as an aside, he is clueless.[/QUOTE]
Luke T. said:
I agree with you that citizens cannot claim ignorance of their decisions and actions but I am not quite sure that there were fully aware of what they were doing.
There were moments that even devoted pacifists like me believed that not even one settlement would ever be dismantled.
Now the Sharonistas believe that the evacuation of the Gaza strip will demonstrate to the international community the complete incapability of the Palestinians to form any national entity and it will put the roots of the settlements in West Bank deeper.
My question is how they don't see the inevitable coming. Maybe I am totally mistaken.
Ed said:
Well, I have said before that a country cannot be founded only on the grounds of religion. Is being Jewish an enough reason to belong to a nation? I believe that it's not because when it comes to the point to built your legislative system you cannot seriously suggest that only jewish people benefit from the legal system especially when the population of your country is mixed like every other country's.
Israel is a sad story. I adore the place and I missed it terribly because is the land of my childhood but I get melancholic when I am thinking of the sorrow.These images from the evacuation of the setttlements didn't just break my heart. I felt as if History was showing us her tongue and mocking us. Wandering Jews in the very Jewish State.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed
Don't they read the papers?
They do but they also watch TV where they see Ariel Sharon visiting the American President whenever the later likes...
I feel the same but the establishment of settlements was a political decision that turned out to be a crime. Somebody has to pay for this even politically speaking.quote:
Originally posted by Ed
I don't know about you but people that knowingly put themselves in jepordy and then cry "foul" do not get a whole lot of sympathy from me.
Matabiri
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Ed said:
I was watching "Hard Talk" on BBC World the other day and they had invited Simon Peres. At the end of the interview the evil british journalist asked him how would he feel if it turned out that Ariel Sharon was promoting peace.
You should have seen his face
Cleopatra said:I was watching "Hard Talk" on BBC World the other day and they had invited Simon Peres. At the end of the interview the evil british journalist asked him how would he feel if it turned out that Ariel Sharon was promoting peace.
You should have seen his face
Maybe he is the only one. Maybe.
Ed said:
I don't believe that but this is a discussion for a different thread and maybe for the philosophy forum.
I see Peace as a " building" process that is very much related and depended on the notion of an open society and full democracy. Note that this comes from somebody like me who is tad totalitarian in nature but I admit the truth.
For Ariel Sharon and his generation and for many jewish people- especially of askenazim origin- the notion of open society is unthinkable.
We owe Ariel Sharon and his alikes the existence of Israel because Europeans sent the Jews in Middle East to get slaughtered by the Arabs or at worse, to become their agents. Nothing of those happened. It was the iron fist that helped us survive but Peace needs more than Iron Fists.
And this is what you, Republicans, seem to miss
zenith-nadir
Illuminator
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It kinda goes like this Ed.
Gaza has been continuously inhabited for at least 3000 years. For 400 of those later years the Ottoman Empire ruled Gaza, therefore it was Ottoman territory. When the British kicked the Ottoman's butts out, Gaza then became British territory - as in, part of British Mandate Palestine. Gaza then came under Egyptian control in 1948 - and from 1948 - 1967 it was Egyptian territory. When Egypt, Jordan and Syria lost the Six Day war in 1967 Gaza then became Israeli territory. Yes... it was occupied... but no more "occupied" than it was under the previous Egyptian, British and Ottoman rules.
From 1967 until 1977 Egypt and Israel maintained a state of war, there was no one to give Gaza back to - there was no Palestinian Authority, there were no Arab peace partners at that time. Therefore after several Arab-Israeli wars Israel desired to form a buffer zone on Israel's southwestern flank - against it's arch enemy Egypt.
[edited to add] - (As in American's Civilization game model)
In 1970 there was a government decision to establish settlements in the Gaza Strip, in 1972 Israel began establishing two army posts in Gaza, which later became the communities of Netzarim and Kfar Darom.
That is the recorded history of Gaza minus the GOD crap.
Gaza has been continuously inhabited for at least 3000 years. For 400 of those later years the Ottoman Empire ruled Gaza, therefore it was Ottoman territory. When the British kicked the Ottoman's butts out, Gaza then became British territory - as in, part of British Mandate Palestine. Gaza then came under Egyptian control in 1948 - and from 1948 - 1967 it was Egyptian territory. When Egypt, Jordan and Syria lost the Six Day war in 1967 Gaza then became Israeli territory. Yes... it was occupied... but no more "occupied" than it was under the previous Egyptian, British and Ottoman rules.
From 1967 until 1977 Egypt and Israel maintained a state of war, there was no one to give Gaza back to - there was no Palestinian Authority, there were no Arab peace partners at that time. Therefore after several Arab-Israeli wars Israel desired to form a buffer zone on Israel's southwestern flank - against it's arch enemy Egypt.
[edited to add] - (As in American's Civilization game model)
In 1970 there was a government decision to establish settlements in the Gaza Strip, in 1972 Israel began establishing two army posts in Gaza, which later became the communities of Netzarim and Kfar Darom.
That is the recorded history of Gaza minus the GOD crap.
