Why not war against Islam?

[Bill Thompson]

It is well known whose side the Catholics were on during the civil war.

Lincoln would not have taken kindly towards that.

I still think the quote from the book is accurate that I stated before. Lincoln would have said that.

And I do not think the quoter would have lied. His book was supposed to be about a former catholic coming clean.

 

[Cleon]

I posted two bits of evidence.

You're still holding on to Chiniquy as "evidence?" Huh. That's the equivalent of posting the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion as "evidence" of a Jewish conspiracy. As for the the quote from georgiaencyclopedia, it really didn't support your point in any way - certainly nothing confirming this supposed anti-Catholic sentiment on Lincoln's part.

If he was really that anti-Catholic, it should be trivial coming up with something he said or wrote to that effect. I doubt this will be forthcoming, though.

You can google topics like "Catholics and the US Civil war" to see it is probably UNLIKELY that Lincoln DID NOT hate the catholics.

"probably unlikely?" Heh.

So much for that "I would only make a statement if I was 100% sure or had proof at hand" bit.

 

[Foster Zygote]

The Catholics were not very quiet about their support for the South during the Civil war. Lincoln was not an idiot. He would not have been kind or had anything positive about the Catholics.

"The Catholics"? All of them? The fact that you seem incapable of comprehending the simple fact that Catholics can have widely varied opinions on any given subject, even disagreeing with the official positions of high ranking clergy, speaks volumes about your use of fallacious reasoning. Go to the bottom of FireGarden's post and look at the link to Archbishop John Hughes.

You can also find quotes from Popes that they had distain for the Union. A nation for and by the people did not sit well with the catholics for a long time.

Find those quotes and post them here. And since your high school history classes don't seem to have informed you too well, The Confederacy viewed itself as preserving government of and for the people in the face of Union corruption of that ideal.

Also, I do not buy that the quoted line from Lincoln was made up that I gave earlier by someone who wrote a book. The book was written by a former Catholic who decided to come clean. One does not typically lie when the come clean.

In other words, you defend your belief in a liar because you find it preferable to admitting error. You have not provided the slightest actual evidence that Lincoln had any animosity toward Catholics and you are making excuses for accepting the lie that he did.

 

[Foster Zygote]

You're still holding on to Chiniquy as "evidence?" Huh. That's the equivalent of posting the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion as "evidence" of a Jewish conspiracy. As for the the quote from georgiaencyclopedia, it really didn't support your point in any way - certainly nothing confirming this supposed anti-Catholic sentiment on Lincoln's part.

If he was really that anti-Catholic, it should be trivial coming up with something he said or wrote to that effect. I doubt this will be forthcoming, though.

"probably unlikely?" Heh.

So much for that "I would only make a statement if I was 100% sure or had proof at hand" bit.

Given the number of Protestants who supported the Confederacy, we should also conclude that Lincoln probably hated Protestants as well.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You're still holding on to Chiniquy as "evidence?" Huh. That's the equivalent of posting the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion as "evidence" of a Jewish conspiracy. As for the the quote from georgiaencyclopedia, it really didn't support your point in any way - certainly nothing confirming this supposed anti-Catholic sentiment on Lincoln's part.

If he was really that anti-Catholic, it should be trivial coming up with something he said or wrote to that effect. I doubt this will be forthcoming, though.

"probably unlikely?" Heh.

So much for that "I would only make a statement if I was 100% sure or had proof at hand" bit.

hey

Where is that "evidence" of Obama's Magna Cum Superstar that you had for me?

Come on, man, get real. Everyone knows whose side the Catholics were on during the Civil War. Tell me this. How could Lincoln NOT be anti-Catholic. You don't make any sense.

 

[Bill Thompson]

"The Catholics"? All of them?

yeah. Even the unborn ones and the pets.

 

[A'isha]

How could Lincoln NOT be anti-Catholic. You don't make any sense.

I see Bill is still ignoring the fact that Lincoln apparently hated Catholics so much he called up the first Vatican-appointed Archbishop of New York to address his cabinet, offered said Archbishop an official position in his government, and when that offer was refused by the Archbishop Lincoln requested that the Archbishop become "one of the President's personal agents with full powers to set forth the Union cause in Europe." While the Civil War was raging!

Maybe Bill will actually address this little fact if he, perhaps, reads it in Carl Sandburg's Pulitzer Prize winning biography of Lincoln.

Would some kind soul ask Bill about this for me, please?

 

[Cleon]

hey

Where is that "evidence" of Obama's Magna Cum Superstar that you had for me?

Come on, man, get real. Everyone knows whose side the Catholics were on during the Civil War. Tell me this. How could Lincoln NOT be anti-Catholic.

So, still no evidence of Lincoln's anti-Catholic views? Thought so.

You don't make any sense.

Repeating the same thing over and over again does little but communicate your own confusion. The words I am using aren't particularly long, and the concepts aren't really complex.

Do you, or do you not, have any evidence of Lincoln holding anti-Catholic views?

 

[Foster Zygote]

How could Lincoln NOT be anti-Catholic.

How could Lincoln not be anti-Protestant?

 

[Foster Zygote]

I see Bill is still ignoring the fact that Lincoln apparently hated Catholics so much he called up the first Vatican-appointed Archbishop of New York to address his cabinet, offered said Archbishop an official position in his government, and when that offer was refused by the Archbishop Lincoln requested that the Archbishop become "one of the President's personal agents with full powers to set forth the Union cause in Europe." While the Civil War was raging!

Maybe Bill will actually address this little fact if he, perhaps, reads it in Carl Sandburg's Pulitzer Prize winning biography of Lincoln.

Would some kind soul ask Bill about this for me, please?

What say you to this, Bill?

 

[Johny2x4]

I see Bill is still ignoring the fact that Lincoln apparently hated Catholics so much he called up the first Vatican-appointed Archbishop of New York to address his cabinet, offered said Archbishop an official position in his government, and when that offer was refused by the Archbishop Lincoln requested that the Archbishop become "one of the President's personal agents with full powers to set forth the Union cause in Europe." While the Civil War was raging!

Maybe Bill will actually address this little fact if he, perhaps, reads it in Carl Sandburg's Pulitzer Prize winning biography of Lincoln.

Would some kind soul ask Bill about this for me, please?

Like I said before, he ignores that because it contradicts is world view.

 

[Minoosh]

My problem with the Qu'ran is the opposite of what some anti-Islam people say on this site - I often can't tell what it says because of the way it's structured, like a question-and-answer sometimes. "You told the believers, "Is it not enough that your Lord supports you with three thousand angels, sent down?" I can't tell who's speaking. Who is "you"? I am using a translation from an extremely controversial imam, but his translation isn't particularly controversial (I don't think). It seems to alternate between condemnation and delicacy - violent imagery intertwined with the disclaimer that Allah is most merciful. I've heard orders of modesty translated in widely differing ways, from "cover your ornaments with your headscarf" (Thus implying that you have a headscarf and should always be wearing it, but the "ornaments" could easily mean cleavage) to "lower your hems" and in some countries the latter is read to apply to men as well.

I look on the Net for "hijab couture" and see ingenious renderings of skin-tight head-to-toe covering complying with the headscarf rule but still *sexy*

I see Saudi repression condemned as idolatry for imposing laws that are not God's, I hear chants of "God is Great" to put down the dictatorial theological class ...

In other words I see diversity, as opposed to statements like "Catholics believe ..." etc. The person who started this thread titled it thus (did we not say it would be so?) and then yards and yards into it one of the chief posters says, of course that doesn't mean literal war, that would be bad. And yet this provocative title was chosen. I see comments like, Christianity has moderated itself to the point where it's now a charming fantasy, no threat to world peace, and I think, huh? There are prominent elements who want to turn the U.S. into a theocracy, we're not out of the woods.

The common thread seems to be that if it's in the Qu'ran all Muslims must believe it or they wouldn't be Muslims - not "true Muslims" anyway :;

Go to a Muslim country, they don't want to blow you up, they want to sell you a carpet.

 

[Craig B]

Minoosh

A few days ago I returned home from Rome via Brussels and observed with surprise and pleasure that

ingenious renderings of skin-tight head-to-toe covering complying with the headscarf rule but still sexy

have been widely adopted by young Muslim women in these cities.

 

[Bill Thompson]

How could Lincoln not be anti-Protestant?

Because the Catholics promised weapons and supplies to the South if a war broke out before the Civil war. There were rumors that they might be helping the South. History class in High School taught us this.

 

[Bill Thompson]

What say you to this, Bill?

What do I say to what?

Lincoln had Catholic friends? Big deal. He was also shot by a Catholic who had Catholic conspirators who planned to also shoot the Vice President but backed out. Booth was also known to have prayed with his Catholic friends and said something to the effect that their hands were being guided.

You need to look at the big picture. The catholic church was on the side of the south. That is clear and you can find evidence of this all over the precious internet since you can't get up and go to a library.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Like I said before, he ignores that because it contradicts is world view.

Ignore what? How does Lincoln's attitude, no matter what it is, about catholics change my world view one way or the other?

Explain.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Science does not find bits and pieces of inforation to bring down opposing viewpoints. You have to account for the big picture. The big picture is that the catholic church was on the side of the south during the civil war.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Because the Catholics promised weapons and supplies to the South if a war broke out before the Civil war. There were rumors that they might be helping the South. History class in High School taught us this.

You've altered your original claim. First it was the Pope who offered weapons and supplies to the Confederacy, and that original claim turned out to be erroneous. There were Catholics who supported the CSA, but there were Protestant supporters as well. Protestant pastors gave sermons defending slavery, protestant women served as nurses in Confederate hospitals, Protestants served in the Confederate military. And in the North there were Catholics who railed against the evils of slavery, tended to the wounded in Union hospitals and served in the Union army.

 

[Foster Zygote]

What do I say to what?

What do you say to the fact that has been presented to counter your simplistic attempts to paint all of a group of people whom you dislike with the actions of some.

Lincoln had Catholic friends? Big deal.

Lincoln had Catholic friends, countering your assertion that he hated Catholics. Big deal, indeed.

He was also shot by a Catholic...

So he hated Catholics because he was shot in the back of the head by one? That has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read. Even if he'd known that his murderer was a Catholic, even if he'd known he'd been murdered, it seems about as likely that it would cause him to hate actors as Catholics.

You need to look at the big picture. The catholic church was on the side of the south. That is clear and you can find evidence of this all over the precious internet since you can't get up and go to a library.

Bill, you seem to have the impression that admitting error regarding any claim will be seen as a sign of weakness. The irony is that admitting error would actually earn for you the respect of many people on this forum. Your refusal to admit error in the face of clear evidence is having exactly the opposite effect.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Science does not find bits and pieces of inforation to bring down opposing viewpoints. You have to account for the big picture. The big picture is that the catholic church was on the side of the south during the civil war.

No, it wasn't. Some Catholics sympathized with the Confederacy, some sympathized with the Union. Some Protestants sympathized with the Confederacy, some with the Union. That is the big picture.