Why not war against Islam?

[Resume]

All three Middle-East monotheisms are backwards in their beliefs.

 

[Cavemonster]

To the OP:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

God says:

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)

God says:

“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)

God says:

“The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” (Quran 5:99)

These Muslims do not agree that your OP characterizes them, and feel quite strongly that the Quran prohibits conversion by force.

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-262-3441.htm
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/661/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism_verses1.htm
http://www.netplaces.com/understanding-islam/jihad-the-holy-struggle/no-forced-conversions.htm
http://islam.about.com/od/jihad/f/jihad.htm
http://ilovemuhammed.com/noble-quran/noble-teachings/46-the-quran-and-religious-freedom

This took five seconds of googling. So when the OP says:

You will find it difficult to find any Muslim who would openly say that waging offensive Jihad for the sake of propagating Islam is un-islamic. Go ahead and try.

He is either ignorant, lazy or dishonest.

 

[DC]

People have a write to believe in any bull their hearts desire, until that bull starts killing people, then the light of truth needs to be shown on it.

Unfortunately, this usually does not mean that the bull is wiped out, it is just changed. This is what happened with Mormonism when the President of the United States told them to stop the practice of having multiple wives. This is what seems to be happening today with idiots using the term "true muslims".

Mormonism, for example, still hurts people today. They make superficial alterations but their core is the same. Taking away the rights of homosexuals in California was the latest campaign. They have make horrific mistakes that they have brushed under the rug. But we are talking about Islam here. Stupid bull hurts and kills people. That is true with all stupid bull. Eventually people in power will abuse the god-like devotion of the followers, I guess.

I think you know I am right. I think you just want to fight it because you fear Liberalism would be next.

It was never forbidden for Christians to use the Old Testament, but they are not allowed to follow some of the rules they find in there.

the Same goes for Muslims.
They are allowed to use the Koran , they are however not allowed to follow some of the rules they find in there.

that is how it is done in my country, what do you think should we change?

 

[FireGarden]

We should all be at war with lies and stupidity.
Being at war with Islam is not the same thing as being at war with Muslims.
I see two reasons why Liberals defend Islam. First of all, it is just a reflex to defend whatever the political Right is against. Secondly, Liberals fear that once false beliefs based on hope and wishful thinking are stricken down, then Liberalism too will be disproved and abolished. Islam thrives on showing faults on other religion while itself being incontrovertibly untrue. That is how Liberalism rolls too. If not for the fact that Liberism attacks those against it while never looking inward, there would be no Liberals.

I'm not a liberal.
And I disagree with your description of liberalism.

That does not mean anything. Since there is no truth in Islam, there is no such thing as a true Muslim. It is suspicious that people defend a false belief.

Again, I don't see how what you say responds to what you quoted.
ANTPogo did not talk about 'true Muslims'. ANTPogo has quoted and reffered to a wide range of Muslims who do not agree with one another and has not implied that any one of them is the one and only proper representation of Islam.

Neither did ANTPogo defend a false belief. He/she stated something you do not even have the guts to disagree with.

If Islam was removed from the equation, there would be no guy wearing a suicide vest. There would be no 9-11 if there was no Islam.

I think there would have been.
There have been plenty of mass murders and suicide attacks (inc using vests) without Islam.

I think there are three things you do not know about Islam

Is this the same video I responded to here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202643&highlight=fgsrnmzxEUY&page=3

By the way,
There are probably a million things I don't know about Islam. But, I think I know way more than you. And I learnt nothing from the video you linked to.

 

[Bill Thompson]

There are some Easterners who have left their Muslim homeland and have written some good books about Islamic thought. They all agree that people who are raised in Muslim societies loose the capacity for rational thought. Islam is the one true anti-science movement.

If we care about people. If we care about Muslims, than Islam is something to be fought, not embraced.


http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdVFWsjZOiiYAxy1XNyoA?ei=UTF-8&p=the%20stupid%2C%20it%20burns&type=W3i_SP%2C204%2C0_0%2CStartPage%2C20110728%2C17117%2C0%2C18%2C0&fr2=tab-web&frw3i

If we care about people. If we care about Muslims, than Islam is something to be fought, not embraced. They will thank us for it later... or their kids will.

We think the fight against Scientology is honorable here (in this forum), the same should be true with other religions whose invalidity is provable and incontravertable.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7327/025ln.jpg

 

[DC]

There are some Easterners who have left their Muslim homeland and have wrritten some good books about Islamic thought. They all agree that people who are raised in Muslim societies loose the capacity for rational thought. Islam is the one true anti-science movement.

If we care about people. If we care about Muslims, than Islam is something to be fought, not embraced.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...tPage,20110728,17117,0,18,0&fr2=tab-web&frw3i

oh i agree that many moslems are very very anti science.
even those actually wanting to use Science to confirm their fairytale book.
they get ripped apart all over youtube, i love that war.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I like Ibn Warraq's books:
http://www.google.com/#q=ibn+warraq...gc.r_pw.&fp=cb4036bba8414c1e&biw=1439&bih=762

 

[armageddonman]

so, Islam is a sexist religion, now?

Now? It always has been.

A women's word counts half as much as a man's.
Women inherit half what a man gets.
Women aren't allowed to travel a certain distance without a male relative.
Men are allowed to beat their women if they do not follow orders.

The list goes on and on and on and on.

 

[DC]

Now? It always has been.

A women's word counts half as much as a man's.
Women inherit half what a man gets.
Women aren't allowed to travel a certain distance without a male relative.
Men are allowed to beat their women if they do not follow orders.

The list goes on and on and on and on.

with now, i meant, what now?
are we going to ban sexist religions?

 

[Bill Thompson]

It was never forbidden for Christians to use the Old Testament, but they are not allowed to follow some of the rules they find in there.

the Same goes for Muslims.
They are allowed to use the Koran , they are however not allowed to follow some of the rules they find in there.

that is how it is done in my country, what do you think should we change?

That is not how things are in lots of countries where the cutting off of hands and heads is a way of life.

 

[DC]

and on the topic of beating your wife, there it seems not even all radical muslim imams seem to agree.

 

[armageddonman]

Not all Muslims follow an ideology that promotes violent conquest of others (among other violent things). And I don't mean they believe in the ideology but don't participate. I mean they don't believe in that ideology in the first place.

Yes they do. It's inherent in their religion.

They might not agree personally with that specific teaching but that does not remove it from Islam.

You can also be a Christian and NOT believe that gay sex is a sin but that does not mean that Christianity doesn't teach that gay sex is a sin. Therefore, as a Christian you follow a religion that teaches that gay sex is a sin (even if you, personally, do not believe it).

 

[DC]

That is not how things are in lots of countries where the cutting off of hands and heads is a way of life.

sure. i would never want to live in a country where sharia law is practiced. Cutting of hands hanging people stoning people, i mean i am against death penalty. and also the rules are wicked.

i also welcome everyone in my country fleeing from a sharia country.

 

[armageddonman]

and on the topic of beating your wife, there it seems not even all radical muslim imams seem to agree.

They disagree about the justifyable reason, the size of the stick and how much force can be used.

They do not disagree wheter or not it's allowed to beat your wife.

 

[FireGarden]

I wasn't aware that Marilyn Manson is asking his fans to kill people. Care to share a source for that?

Probably you interpret Manson's art in a different way to this guy:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.marilyn-manson/msg/5f8b2fa591032024

Kuntz told the emotional story of his son
Richard's suicide by gunshot. Richard had been listening to "The
Reflecting
God" over and over (so said his friends) and ACS was still in his CD
player
when his body was discovered. Kuntz read the entire lyrics of the song
and
hammered Manson, saying "this music glorifies inhumanity, promotes
suicide,
contradicts all values and hurts us as a people."

Let's read a snippet:

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/693/
"there's no reason to live at all
my world is unaffected, there is an exit here"
...
"each thing I show you is a piece of my death"
shoot shoot shoot ************


Do I think Manson is calling on his fans to kill themselves or others? No. Do I see him as in favour of his own suicide/death? No. But then I'm capable of hearing more than the literal meaning and of seeing things in context -- not to mention able to understand people when they express their own opinion about words and context.

How do you manage to answer 'no'?



above links , via wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Manson_(band)#Controversy

 

[Bill Thompson]

Firegarden: I do not think Jonestown would have happned without the Jim Jones' cult. I do not think the stand-off in Wacco would have happend without the Branch Davidian cult.

Likewise, I do not think 9-11 would have happened without Islam. I cannot see how that would have come to pass as just a typical, political act of war.

 

[armageddonman]

with now, i meant, what now?
are we going to ban sexist religions?

Is that a red herring or a strawman?

Where on earth did I ever advocate banning any religion?

 

[armageddonman]

Probably you interpret Manson's art in a different way to this guy:

I think you totally lost the context here.

Islam DOES teach to wage war but most Muslims either are not interested or are not doing anything war-like or don;t think the time is right.

It is an undeniable fact that Islam has been spread through imperialistic conquest.

What does that have to do with Marylin Manson? Please explain.

 

[DC]

Is that a red herring or a strawman?

Where on earth did I ever advocate banning any religion?

well i don't get your point then.
you were not only able to criticize Islam, i even agreed on it.
we both think it is a sexist religion. and we are free to say so.

 

[DC]

I think you totally lost the context here.

Islam DOES teach to wage war but most Muslims either are not interested or are not doing anything war-like or don;t think the time is right.

It is an undeniable fact that Islam has been spread through imperialistic conquest.

What does that have to do with Marylin Manson? Please explain.

ANTpogo has pointed out Muslims that do not only not believe in that doctrine, he/she pointed out Muslims that actually do not agree that Islam teaches any such thing.