Why not war against Islam?

[DC]

Holy crap. How diffcult is it to make a simple point understandable?

Let's try that again:

If you follow an ideology which promotes violent conquest of others (among other violent things), would you not expect to be watched with suspicion by others even if you yourself are not participating in any violence?

Clear enough?

yes, and those people are watched closely, and in some countries they are even fought in a War.

when this is what you see as war on Islam, then we have already one, War on Terror.

 

[Virus]

Holy crap. How diffcult is it to make a simple point understandable?

It's difficult because you're addressing people who have been conditioned to lie to themselves about how all cultures are equal and all religions are the same.

 

[DC]

oh dear, we were conditioned........ just because some of us refuse to lump al muslims together in one pot.

but when talking about ABB, we are not even suposed to point out that he saw himself as a Christian.....

 

[DC]

can anyone that supports a War on Islam explain to me why Moslems that did not brake any law in my country should be fought in a War?

 

[armageddonman]

yes, and those people are watched closely, and in some countries they are even fought in a War.

when this is what you see as war on Islam, then we have already one, War on Terror.

I have stated multiple times that I don't think that we are at war with Islam nor do I advocate war on Islam.

 

[Virus]

when this is what you see as war on Islam, then we have already one, War on Terror.

Which they started.

The truth of the matter is that we don't care about the stupid tribal spats they've been having with each other for centuries. Just stop drawing us into them.

 

[DC]

I have stated multiple times that I don't think that we are at war with Islam nor do I advocate war on Islam.

what is then your point? We are fighting those that want a violent jihad on several fronts, real war, watching their steps, getting informatns that are close to them etc etc.
i dont see what your point is.

 

[DC]

Which they started.

The truth of the matter is that we don't care about the stupid tribal spats they've been having with each other for centuries. Just stop drawing us into them.

i didn't say war on terror is wrong. i think those extremists have to be fought.
what is your point?

 

[armageddonman]

what is then your point? We are fighting those that want a violent jihad on several fronts, real war, watching their steps, getting informatns that are close to them etc etc.
i dont see what your point is.

1. There are Muslims who believe that Islam needs to conquer the world through offensive Jihad, who would willingly participate in such a war and think it's going to start soon.

2. Even those Muslims who do not wish for such a war or would willingly participate in one, still follow a religion which promotes doing so.

My point is that both groups should realize that either way, non-Muslims might have a point in being critical of Islam or suspicious of Muslims without that criticism being irrational or "Islamophobia".

 

[DC]

1. There are Muslims who believe that Islam needs to conquer the world through offensive Jihad, who would willingly participate in such a war and think it's going to start soon.

2. Even those Muslims who do not wish for such a war or would willingly participate in one, still follow a religion which promotes doing so.

My point is that both groups should realize that either way, non-Muslims might have a point in being critical of Islam or suspicious of Muslims without that criticism being irrational or "Islamophobia".

When you believe Muslims that do not believe Islam promotes such a violent Jihad would still take part in a Jihad. Then this is Islamaphobia.
it was pointed out by ANTPogo that muslims have different views on what the Koran commends them to do.

 

[DC]

but even if their Koran commands Muslims to conquer the world violently, that does not mean they will do it. Like it was pointed out earlier in the thread, many if not all Religions have commands in their "holy" scriptures that are not followed and still not removed from their books.

G.W. Bush claimed to be a Christian, but however he did not follow Jesus's commands. Lucky so, even Bush was smarter than Jesus.

 

[Darat]

1. There are Muslims who believe that Islam needs to conquer the world through offensive Jihad, who would willingly participate in such a war and think it's going to start soon.

2. Even those Muslims who do not wish for such a war or would willingly participate in one, still follow a religion which promotes doing so.

My point is that both groups should realize that either way, non-Muslims might have a point in being critical of Islam or suspicious of Muslims without that criticism being irrational or "Islamophobia".

The problem I see in your post is that the second point is not how those folk would see it - as ever with religion (of any favour) only the ones that follow what I claim my religion to be are true Scotsman.

And as we can see from around the world many folk who self identify to be of a particular religion espouse beliefs and behaviours that most of the others who self identify to be of the same religion vehemently disown.

The issue that has to be tackled is extremist ideology and dehumanisation of "them", and I can't see any evidence that any religion or any other ideology has a monopoly on that. If you are brought up in an Islamic culture your extremism will take on the colour of your culture i.e. islam as will how you dehumanise "them", but this is true for all cultures.

There is of course another problem and that is that most extremism that goes on to result in killing and the other barbarisms that we label terrorism rarely has a single "cause" and I use speech marks around that since unpicking the true causation in such complex interactions is almost impossible. Usually when someone is more familiar with a particular issue and the culture where terrorism has arisen they are more likely to adopt a "it's not because they are a <insert religion of choice>". A common used example of this is the Troubles in my country (the UK). Most people recognise that even though the lines of division in the community are almost entirely on which flavour of Christianity someone follows that it is inaccurate to say that it is "Christian terrorism", even though (as an example) the police man recently killed by a bomb planted in his car that was outside his house was killed because he was a Catholic policeman.

 

[FireGarden]

I find this knee jerk reaction defending Islam rather odd.

You seem to be able to find things in people's posts which I don't see.

No matter what a Muslim does we can write it off because Islam hasn't 'matured' as much as Christianity.

Where did ANTPogo say this? Where has he/she written off anything which anybody has done?

Didn't take you long to start throwing garbage.


Islam can't be criticized because of what it's followers do, it can't be criticized because of what it's book says nor how it's prophet acted so how is it to be criticized?

I seem to remember ANTPogo asking that people find out what the Quran ACTUALLY says and criticise THAT (and its various interpretations). I also remember him/her giving a range of opinions from Muslims, all interpreting the same text.

And I also remember other posters pointing out the range of behaviour of the followers of Islam.

What you don't seem to understand is that it is wrong to judge Marilyn Manson and his music based entirely on what SOME of his fans did and/or say about it.

And you're not alone in that:

1. There are Muslims who believe that Islam needs to conquer the world through offensive Jihad, who would willingly participate in such a war and think it's going to start soon.

2. Even those Muslims who do not wish for such a war or would willingly participate in one, still follow a religion which promotes doing so.

There are fans of Marilyn Manson who don't go on killing sprees. But do they still listen to music which leads to doing so?

My point is that both groups should realize that either way, non-Muslims might have a point in being critical of Islam or suspicious of Muslims without that criticism being irrational or "Islamophobia".

I am one such non-Muslim. And so is ANTPogo.
You are not.

In much the same way that I can criticise the music of Marilyn Manson without blaming it for Columbine.

 

[tsig]

Didn't take you long to start throwing garbage.


Islam can't be criticized because of what it's followers do, it can't be criticized because of what it's book says nor how it's prophet acted so how is it to be criticized?

who said that?

i guess in your book only the total destruction of Islam can be seen as a critique of Islam.

QED

Even talking about criticizing Islam gets the slam.

 

[armageddonman]

There are fans of Marilyn Manson who don't go on killing sprees. But do they still listen to music which leads to doing so?

I wasn't aware that Marilyn Manson is asking his fans to kill people. Care to share a source for that?

 

[DC]

QED

Even talking about criticizing Islam gets the slam.

well what specifically do you critize about Islam?
we then can have a look if that is a rational critique.

 

[tsig]

what is then your point? We are fighting those that want a violent jihad on several fronts, real war, watching their steps, getting informatns that are close to them etc etc.
i dont see what your point is.

So you are actually in favor of war on Islam.

 

[tsig]

When you believe Muslims that do not believe Islam promotes such a violent Jihad would still take part in a Jihad. Then this is Islamaphobia.
it was pointed out by ANTPogo that muslims have different views on what the Koran commends them to do.

ANTpogo seems to have a different view of Islam than the guy wearing a suicide vest in a crowded restuaurant

 

[DC]

So you are actually in favor of war on Islam.

no, unless it is a verbal one.

 

[DC]

ANTpogo seems to have a different view of Islam than the guy wearing a suicide vest in a crowded restuaurant

yeah that is the very point. that is the reason why a War against Islam is wrong but a War on Terrorism is needed.