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Why not war against Islam?

DC said:
can people that belief Peacefull moslems missinterpreted their Koran, pls explain their reasoning?
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Because they prefer peace over war.

Also, it's not up to the individual Muslim to start a war. The war needs to be started by the Caliphate and the last Caliphate ended with the end of the Ottoman empire.

What you will hear very often is that while offensive Jihad is a requirement, nobody today is authorized to start one.

Same goes for Sharia.
 
armageddonman said:
I have yet to see any Muslim scholar provide a different statement.
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So any muslim scholar providing a statement of peace would be sufficient for you to accept as evidence that not all muslims wish to conquer by force, enslavement and rape?
 
armageddonman said:
Because they prefer peace over war.

Also, it's not up to the individual Muslim to start a war. The war needs to be started by the Caliphate and the last Caliphate ended with the end of the Ottoman empire.

What you will hear very often is that while offensive Jihad is a requirement, nobody today is authorized to start one.

Same goes for Sharia.
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Then by that reasoning there is no reason to go to war with Islam as per OP, since a preliminary (sp?) strike is not required, as nobody has the authority to start a holy war.

E: Also where do you get the idea that offensive jihad is a requirement? A requirement for what, being a good muslim?
 
armageddonman said:
Because they prefer peace over war.

Also, it's not up to the individual Muslim to start a war. The war needs to be started by the Caliphate and the last Caliphate ended with the end of the Ottoman empire.

What you will hear very often is that while offensive Jihad is a requirement, nobody today is authorized to start one.

Same goes for Sharia.
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nono, where are they interperting their Koran wrong?

i mean you seem to know exactly what it say, how come you are able to interpret it so precisely while moslems themself are not somuch in agreement of how to interpret the koran.

so where are the peacefull moslems wrong? what did they miss in their Koran so they didnt realize they have to wage war on others?
 
Fishstick said:
So any muslim scholar providing a statement of peace would be sufficient for you to accept as evidence that not all muslims wish to conquer by force, enslavement and rape?
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No, I'd have to see a statement that Jihad is not a requirement of Islam (anymore) and that the Quranic teaching that Muslims need to subjugate the non-Muslim countries are irrelevant (today).
 
Fishstick said:
Then by that reasoning there is no reason to go to war with Islam as per OP, since a preliminary (sp?) strike is not required, as nobody has the authority to start a holy war.
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As stated before, I do not think that anyone is at war with Islam nor that anyone should be at war with Islam.

E: Also where do you get the idea that offensive jihad is a requirement? A requirement for what, being a good muslim?
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Believing that offensive Jihad is a requirement is a requirement for being a Muslim.

Not starting it.

Analogy: to be a Christian, you need to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Doesn't mean that YOU have to rise from the dead to be a Christian.
 
armageddonman said:
No, I'd have to see a statement that Jihad is not a requirement of Islam (anymore) and that the Quranic teaching that Muslims need to subjugate the non-Muslim countries are irrelevant (today).
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By Jihad I assume you mean the western-interpreted form of it being a pseudo translation of 'holy war', right?


So such one quote would prove that ALL muslims now agree with this scholar, because all muslims are exactly alike and act as one bloc? Because before a scholar says this, no muslims are capable of free interpretation of what is acceptable for today's standards.
 
armageddonman said:
No, I'd have to see a statement that Jihad is not a requirement of Islam (anymore) and that the Quranic teaching that Muslims need to subjugate the non-Muslim countries are irrelevant (today).
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but there are different ways of jihad, it doesnt mean what you seem to believe.

how are you able to correctly interpret the koran when you do not even know such basic things?
 
armageddonman said:
As stated before, I do not think that anyone is at war with Islam nor that anyone should be at war with Islam.



Believing that offensive Jihad is a requirement is a requirement for being a Muslim.
Not starting it.

Analogy: to be a Christian, you need to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Doesn't mean that YOU have to rise from the dead to be a Christian.
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evidence?
 
but still where does the koran command moslems to take over the world in a war?
 
Fishstick said:
By Jihad I assume you mean the western-interpreted form of it being a pseudo translation of 'holy war', right?
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I mean the offensive war to expand the Caliphate as required by Islam. I know that Jihad also refers to "Internal struggle" but it most definetly refers to expansive warfare as well.

You know the very kind of war Muhammad and after him the Caliphes engaged in to expand the Caliphate and was waged on the world for hundreds of years after Muhammad.

So, are you saying that Islam does NOT teach that the Caliphate needs to be expanded until all the world is united under Islam?
 
armageddonman said:
I mean the offensive war to expand the Caliphate as required by Islam. I know that Jihad also refers to "Internal struggle" but it most definetly refers to expansive warfare as well.

You know the very kind of war Muhammad and after him the Caliphes engaged in to expand the Caliphate and was waged on the world for hundreds of years after Muhammad.

So, are you saying that Islam does NOT teach that the Caliphate needs to be expanded until all the world is united under Islam?
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evidence?

with your logic we could claim, the Crusades were a requirement, but they were not.
 
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DC said:
where did other religions say something like that?
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How is that relevant to the discussion?

Btw, I fully acknowledge that I might be wrong. I'd be happy to have a look at statements from Islamic scholars who say that expansive war for the sake of expanding the Caliphate is un-islamic and not a requirement in Islam.

It's just that so far, all I have read states the exact opposite.
 
armageddonman said:
How is that relevant to the discussion?

Btw, I fully acknowledge that I might be wrong. I'd be happy to have a look at statements from Islamic scholars who say that expansive war for the sake of expanding the Caliphate is un-islamic and not a requirement in Islam.

It's just that so far, all I have read states the exact opposite.
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you are the one making a claim and you want official islamic schoolars to speak against what you claim is required in Islam.

maybe you should first prove your claim that it is a requirement in islam.
 
armageddonman said:
Look, I was talking about the mindset of SOME Muslims today and what the reactions of non-Muslims to that are with hindsight regarding Islam's history.

Never mind what evils Christians did in the past. Christianity has been and is being critizized rightfully but why on earth do some people always find it neccessary to construct an tu-quoque when it comes to Islam and come up with those Victorian ideas about the Crusades?

Seriously, the last thing the Muslims can blame the Christians for are the Crusades.
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The first thing that comes to mind for me when I hear people like you and Eagle and Virus and other Fundamentalist talk about islam and moslems the way you do is..... O...O... Not AGAIN..... When is MY turn coming.:boxedin:

When Hitler started his HATRED and dehumanization of Jews in Nazi Germany many people either went along or stayed quite. That TACIT acquiescence and not nipping the evil in the bud resulted in not just 6M jews being killed but also many other ethnicities that were not as undesirable but nevertheless undesirables. Millions of Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc. etc. were also gassed.

So HATRED and racism and generalizations about races or religions and whole scale DEMONIZATION of people upon whatever demarcation lines will eventually lead to GENOCIDE and HOLOCAUSTS. Sooner or later the demarcation lines also become smeared and other undesirables would be included.

When I see Fundamentalist Christians full of BLIND HATE and AGGRESSIVE ANGER calling for WARS..... I start wondering when are the Jews going to be INCLUDED AGAIN.

Jews were included in the Inquisitions when Christians fought against the Moors in Spain.

Jews were included when the Christians fought against the Saracens in the Crusades.

Jews were included when the Europeans fought each other in WWII.

So when I see CALLS FOR WORLD WAR....the first thing that comes to mind is .... O....O....NOT BLOODY AGAIN!!!!!

I stayed quite when they came for the Moslems.....I stayed quite when they came for the Jews..... I stayed quite when they came for the [....fill the blanks....].....by the time they came for the Atheists and Scientists ....it was too late.... there was nobody left to stay quite.
 
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