Why is the US alone in SETI?

[Beerina]

Well it is based on some shaky assumptions. One for instance is that intelligent life will create civilizations. And that advanced civilizations will use radio.

I don't know if that's a shakey assumption. The same claim was made about a civilization being expansionist. It was quickly pointed out that the one and only civilization we actually know of was, in fact, expansionist.

The same would apply to civilization and radio. While some might not, that we do surely indicates it's a definite non-trivial possibility, if not probability.


More likely, the temporal "radio window", during which a civilization uses EM spectrum may only be a few hundred years, then they turn to something much better. So at any given moment, there won't be much EM floating around that's non-natural and detectable. When we say "not detectable", we mean "not detectable within a few hundred to few thousand light years, at best." That's a far, far, far cry from pretending we're scanning the entire universe, all 400 billion galaxies of 100 billion stars each.

 

[uruk]

In other words: Curiosity for curiosity's (spelling?) sake is all well and good, but where's the beef?

I think that knowing once and for all that we are not alone is worth the cash alone even if we don't practicaly benefit from it immediately.

And seeing as how well we all get a long together on this planet, it's probably a good idea that our species would be separated from the others by all those lightyears.

 

[uruk]

Nothing wrong with it at all - people are welcome to waste their own money any way they like.



That's perfectly reasonable. I guess it seems too much like tithing to me.

I don't know if Carl Sagan et. al. ever claimed that SETI was good solid science or not. it is mearly a search hopeing for some really, really good luck to come along.
I think just about everybody involved knows it is a rediculous long shot.

It is privately funded so it is thier time and money to "waste". Vastly larger amounts of money have been wasted on far less.

But hey, if you want to equate searching for an extraterrestrial signal akin to the search for god, go ahead. But I'd wager that the search for an extraterrestial signal has a significantly better chance than finding god.

 

[The Atheist]

I don't know if Carl Sagan et. al. ever claimed that SETI was good solid science or not. it is mearly merely a search hopeing hoping for some really, really good luck to come along.
I think just about everybody involved knows it is a rediculous ridiculous long shot.

It is privately funded so it is thier their time and money to "waste". Vastly larger amounts of money have been wasted on far less.

But hey, if you want to equate searching for an extraterrestrial signal akin to the search for god, go ahead. But I'd wager that the search for an extraterrestial signal has a significantly better chance than finding god.

I didn't equate the search with searching for god, I said giving money to SETI was like tithing. I agree that there are plenty of means of wasting money, it's just that there are few which suck skeptics into them.

(For future reference, I have corrected the mistakes in your post in red.)

 

[ConspiRaider]

Lets first invent FTL communications. And we have it then we should start to listen. And knowing our luck the first things we receive will be the scrabbled intergalactic porn channel.

One minor inconvenience:

Nothing can travel faster than light. Nothing that isn't already moving at the speed of light can be accelerated to the speed of light.

Otherwise like yeah, like subspace radio, let's do it!

 

[The Atheist]

Nothing that isn't already moving at the speed of light can be accelerated to the speed of light.

That has to be wrong.

As I understand it, nothing was travelling at any speed at all a nanosecond before the big bang. Even after that, the stars had to form before they emitted light.

 

[shadron]

That has to be wrong.

As I understand it, nothing was travelling at any speed at all a nanosecond before the big bang. Even after that, the stars had to form before they emitted light.

Oh, pretty please, let's not turn this into another Plasma Cosmology dead end. Pretty please?

 

[ConspiRaider]

That has to be wrong.

As I understand it, nothing was travelling at any speed at all a nanosecond before the big bang. Even after that, the stars had to form before they emitted light.

No, it's correct, and we're talking current time, not pre-Big Bang. Whatever the speed of light was, at some point it stabilized at approximately 186,000 miles per second, through a vacuum. Hard, hard limit. That's why it's known as a constant.

Also, visible light is only one form of electromagnetic radiation. You've got ultraviolet, infrared, radio waves, X-rays, gamma rays as well.

You and I CANNOT get into a spaceship and be accelerated to the speed of light. Perhaps close - but we'll never reach it. And therefore if there actually is going to be such an animal as interstellar travel, it has to be thought of as very long haul. Generations living and dying on the spaceship before it reaches its destination, or just decides to stop off at a friendly looking neighborhood.

Science fiction is terrific. I love it. But it is fiction.

 

[The Atheist]

No, it's correct, and we're talking current time, not pre-Big Bang.

Probably you need to state it thus: "since the BB...."

Just me being overly pedantic.

 

[bigred]

A bit of a difference for me.

Churches:

Make promises and surely don´t deliver (afterlife etc.).

You have no idea if they deliver or not.

Where I live, you have to pay a certain amount of your income if you are a member (catholics, lutherians, some others), no choice. If you are not a member, no service.

You live in a seriously strange place. And frankly, color me skeptical of that whole thing.

I I'd wager that the search for an extraterrestial signal has a significantly better chance than finding god.

Despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[Georg]

[derail]

You have no idea if they deliver or not.

I have at least a vague idea. YMMV.

You live in a seriously strange place. And frankly, color me skeptical of that whole thing.

No problem with that, this is a skeptics forum and here is the evidence:

Church tax is a tax imposed on members of some religious congregations in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Austria and some parts of Switzerland.

snip

Germany

About 70% of church revenues do come from church tax. This is about €8.5 billion (in 2002).

Article 137 of the Weimar Constitution of 1919 and article 140 of the Grundgesetz of 1949 are the legal basis for this practice.

In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either

* require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or
* choose to collect the church tax themselves.

In the first case, membership in the community is entered onto a tax document (Lohnsteuerkarte) which employees must surrender to their employers for the purpose of withholding tax on paid income. If membership in a tax-collecting religious community is entered on the document, the employer must withhold church tax prepayments from the income of the employee in addition to other tax prepayments. In connection with the final annual income tax assessment, the state revenue authorities also finally assess the church tax owed. In the case of self-employed persons or of unemployed taxpayers, state revenue authorities collect prepayments on the church tax together with prepayments on the income tax.

taken from wiki.

[/derail]

 

[Beerina]

I hadn't seen this thread, but it goes well with the Fermi thread, where I actually commented that SETI is one of the biggest con-jobs ever - and apparently in the name of [some very dodgy] science.

Looks like the reasons noted so far cover the reasons why I'm against so many resources being wasted on it.

So noted, Drumlin. Now get the hell outta here!

Oh, sorry, you're being interviewed on TV, I'll shut up a sec.

The Athiest: "...which we lovingly call Elmo."

 

[uruk]

I didn't equate the search with searching for god, I said giving money to SETI was like tithing. I agree that there are plenty of means of wasting money, it's just that there are few which suck skeptics into them.

Sorry for jumping conclusions, but tithing has a definite religeious connatation.

I don't quite see SETI the same way. I see SETI more like spending your money on lottery tickets rather than tithing because, like the lottery, there is at least a probability, however small, of success dispite the astronomical (sorry for the pun) odds.

(For future reference, I have corrected the mistakes in your post in red.)

Nice try, but 12 years of primary school couldn't make me a good speller. My memory is so bad that I'll forget after a few minuets.

Face it, lanugage is a living, evolving entity. Words have changed meanings, connatations and spelling through out time. Trying to stem the flow of bad spelling is like trying to stop a tidal wave, But I admire your determination.

Potato; potatoe? Grey; gray? Color; colour?

 

[bigred]

[derail]
No problem with that, this is a skeptics forum and here is the evidence:

My skepicism was/is mild FYI, but thx for the info - although in fairness, paying a tax is not the same as someone sitting at the church doors going "fess up (X amount) or you can't come in." ie the issue is with the gov't, not the church.

Anyway, press on SETI. Despite the near-zero chance for success, it's a fun (I think even worthy) thing to think about/shoot for.

 

[uruk]

You have no idea if they deliver or not.

Well you definitly have the same chances of having your prayer answered by god as you would by praying to Joe Pesce (Thank you george)

Despite evidence to the contrary.

evidence of god = 0
evidence of extraterestrials = 0

Well actually the evidence for extraterestrials is a little better than zero. Intelligent life arose here so there is one example of intelligent life existing in the universe. That means that the possibility definitly exists for intelligent life elsewhere. Since it arose here means there is no mechinisim within the universe which would prevent intelligent life from arising elsewhere.

If it arose here I can see no reason as to why it can't arise anywhere else. It's a big universe and there are a huge number of possibilities out there.

 

[uruk]

That has to be wrong.

As I understand it, nothing was travelling at any speed at all a nanosecond before the big bang. Even after that, the stars had to form before they emitted light.

Well, there was the light emitted from the big bang itself. You can still detect it with radio telescopes. Just point it in any direction.

 

[bigred]

Well you definitly have the same chances of having your prayer answered by god as you would by praying to Joe Pesce (Thank you george)

OK last response on this sidetrack...

Again, no, there is nothing definite about that whatsoever, since you have no way of knowing (by any scientific reasoning, anyway) whether God has or hasn't answered your prayer - keeping in mind the answer may an answer other than what one prefers.

Well actually the evidence for extraterestrials is a little better than zero. Intelligent life arose here so there is one example of intelligent life existing in the universe.

Except that that isn't extra-terrestrial, is it

If it arose here I can see no reason as to why it can't arise anywhere else. It's a big universe and there are a huge number of possibilities out there.

No argument there.

 

[uruk]

OK last response on this sidetrack...

Again, no, there is nothing definite about that whatsoever, since you have no way of knowing (by any scientific reasoning, anyway) whether God has or hasn't answered your prayer - keeping in mind the answer may an answer other than what one prefers.

True, But don't you think it odd that the rate at which god responds to prayer is exactly the same as if you don't pray, or rather the same as a control group.

Except that that isn't extra-terrestrial, is it

That statement was a set up for next statement next to which you answered.....

No argument there.

Besides we would be extraterestrial to another species out there.

 

[Georg]

[continuing derail]

My skepicism was/is mild FYI, but thx for the info -

As I said, and I meant it, there is nothing wrong with doubting my statement, as long as I have not shown any evidence. No skin off my nose.
What does FYI mean?

although in fairness, paying a tax is not the same as someone sitting at the church doors going "fess up (X amount) or you can't come in." ie the issue is with the gov't, not the church.

You can go to mass, they don´t control there, but that was not what I meant with "service". What I meant is you don´t get religious services like marriage, funeral etc. if you are not a member, and as a member, you have to pay. That´s forced tithing, and that´s what I claimed.
Then there is of course the question what happens with your salvation if you sneak in churches without being a member? Does that "fraud" damn you for eternity? Even if you believe in god?
I´m really happy, that as an atheist, I do not have to solve that puzzle....
And the issue is not with the government, the government only collects the tax for the churches. The decision if a church wants the tax from their members is completely up to them. Of course the greedy churches will not forgo their right to collect the tax, since it roughly sums up to 4 billion Euro a year for catholics/protestants (lutherians) each.
[/continuing derail]

Anyway, press on SETI. Despite the near-zero chance for success, it's a fun (I think even worthy) thing to think about/shoot for.

Installed it, started it, finished the first package already.

 

[bigred]

[continuing derail]
What does FYI mean?

For
Your
Information

Freakin Americans are nothing if not acronyms these days.