Wow, Fiona....sorry, but in my humble little opinion you are really seriously overthinking here....
And may I say you seem to be taking all my statements as an absolute. In other words, I'm making statements
Either you are arguing that it is not what the voters already think; and in that case it seems an awful lot of bother to go to, to get elected on policies which depend on changing a majority of people's minds: or you are arguing that the politicians are using what the people already think to make themselves acceptable to the voters. If you are arguing the first then your politicians have a lot of integrity and are to be admired. if you are arguing the second then that is democracy and unless you oppose democracy you don't have a case
I'm not arguing. I making a statement. It's both. Yes. It's both. Depending on the people involved and the topic. I don't oppose democracy but I do know that there is corruption and integrity depending on the person, the situtation and the area. There are no absolutes.
No, for the reasons I give above. Why don't you try applying your mind to this question instead of these soundbites? Why is anything illegal?
Nope, I'm not playing that game. Sorry, Fiona. A) that wasn't the point of the topic, B) there are different reasons why different things are illegal. C) Some things that are illegal are not as horrible as others.
Stop trying to pigeon hole me into absolutes.
My stance is that prostitution being illegal is based upon morals and political grandstanding.
If it was not then I have no idea why it would make you sad.
Why? Is it wrong to feel that way?
Do you have evidence for that statement? There are things which are illegal which carry no "stigma": drunk driving used to be like that and it is not now. The stigma does not come from the legal status of the activity
Oh, but prostitution remaining illegal does wonders to remove that stigma, huh?
As a side point, if the model does not want to make pornography as you define it do you still pay her? If you do then why bother with the shoot? Just give them the money.
Yes. There had been a time where I had a model who I was filming then she was going to do something but at the last minute, she didn't want to do it. I honored her request and paid her the full amount agreed upon even though she only did about a quarter of what we did agree to do.
Guess what? Later she came back and did the entire shoot and I paid her in full again.
Truly treating someone as a human being involves a relationship between free people who may or may not decide to play badminton together or go to bed.
Well, we talked to each other, I was polite, made her laugh, enjoyed her company. I try to do that with everyone. If that's not treating someone like a human being, then okay -- I treat everyone like a robot.
...Sorry everyone!
Again you are making no sense. If the "lot of people" don't do what you do, are they exploiting prostitutes? If they are then it is not in the eye of the beholder. If they are not then why do you bother? There is no difference between you. You are both paying to use someone else's body for your own gratification. A polite "customer" is a little more pleasant than an impolite one but there is no essential difference between the two.
...then by your standards, all customers, all strangers fail at treating others like humans. Again, you are talking in absolutes.
I'm beginning to feel very sorry for you, Fiona.....
You did not finish your thought so I cannot be sure I am addressing what you meant to say. For what it is worth, I have answered this above. But I love the way you glide over the difference between real physical threat and being yelled at. You cannot be so naive.
To be honest, I meant to delete that. I started with a point, and I kinda meandered around and lost it.
But basically, what I was trying to drive at is that what you might see as exploitation, the people involved might not. And someone might feel exploited in a situtation with one person involved, but take out that person and put in a different one, and they do not.
However, I suspect that you think that people are exploited no matter if they feel that way or not. If I'm wrong with that assumption, I'm sorry.
I see no evidence of this at all. What I do know is that there are a lot of people who bully and intimidate and abuse and murder prostitutes. I do not think they are moral people.
I agree that those people are not moral people, however, I do not think that all or most people are like that to prostitutes.
You have complained about your job many times on this board. So why not just go and be a prostitute. There are lots of lonely old women out there and many people here have said that it is very lucrative. You can apparently work short and flexible hours so there is a lot to be said for it. Since it is just like any other job I cannot for the life of me understand why you do not do this. You obviously have the time.
I do wear my heart on my sleeve.
Anyway, I've seriously considered it. I didn't go into it because I don't think I'm physically attrative enough to do the job. I've recently lost 130 pounds and I'm still working on toning up.
I have not seen you answer that with anything other than your "feelings"
And that's all I've seen from the illegal side as well.....
And there's no evidence that prostitution remaining illegal is helping any of the problems associated with it.
It is once again about your moral position.
No, it's about everyone's. Not mine, not yours, everyone's. I am not trying to force my morals onto someone else. By making prostitution legal, those who's morals say prostitution is okay can practice it and those who's morals say prostitution is bad can have regulations so that it doesn't interfere with their morals. Also, there's a whole range of morals in between.
Being illegal doesn't allow that whole range. It only satisfies one set of morals and nothing beyond that one set of morals.
As I said, if you view it as morally legitimate to use other people as objects for your own gratification and ends, then you are perfectly free to use prostitutes.
I view it as my morals to allow the people themselves to make their own decisions on whether they feel exploited or not.
I do not see why you try to deny the real circumstances they are in, because there is no reason to do so, if this is your position. It is nothing to do with law: it is your own behaviour which is in question. It would not be inconsistent to wish to improve the situation for those women for reasons of your own: prevention of diseases you might catch, for example. But you deal with that by choosing the source of the object and legalisation is irrelevant.
No, Fiona, I understand it all too well.
I KNOW my morals isn't right for everyone. I know that what I think is right is not for others. What you see as exploitive I don't, and vice versa. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't understand.
It doesn't work for you, fine. It works for me, fine. Let someone else decide if it works for them or not! Keeping it illegal doesn't give a person the chance to make a choice.
Don't forget I believe in choices.
And I know that some of them are in real bad situtations. In fact, I'm against the "Swedish law" because it does nothing to help prostitutes in a bad situtation. I'm against it being illegal because in all the years that it has been, the prostitute's situtation has not improved one iota.
So that leaves legalization. I am of the opinion that with the proper regulations, all prostitutes can be protected and/or helped. It may be a work immediently, it may take some trail and error to find the right regulations, but it is a start.
How can you expect me to believe you respect prostitutes when you have just disrespected some millions of voters? Are you the only one with the wit to think this through and all the rest of us are merely gullible? Wow.
Absolutes, Fiona. Again, my advice is to stay away from absolutes.
Is it disrepectful to say that there are corrupt polictians out there? Is it disrepsectful to say that a lot of people fall for those tricks?
Nope, I don't think so. Because some people do fall into that catagory, some don't. And you know what? I do too, sometimes. We are all guilty of that. It's just part of being human. Look, I don't know everything, I am not bright enough to see everything others don't. In fact, when I'm wrong, I'm the first one to say so. And I've said, on this very thread, that sometimes I'm dim.
Please, Fiona, stop trying to put everything I say into an absolutes.
It is not a slippery slope if they are correct. It is merely a statement of fact. But once again I have not seen any such argument. I have seen arguments based on the evidence that legalising prostitution does not do what the proponents claim: I have not seen you answer that with anything other than your "feelings"
Oh they are correct? You have proof that if prostitution is legal all men with think that women are just an object? Really?
Seems to me that there are a lot of "feelings", not just mine, are being thrown about here.
Read the evidence again. I used to think as you do. It is not supported by the evidence we have, so far as I can see. It has surface plausibility: but like many things it just turns out to be wrong.
wrong? Why? Seems to me that it being illegal isn't that much better.
As to the evidence, I told you. I'm still sorting it out. Part of that is seeing the other side of the coin.
Another thing is seems to me that the favorite meathod of a lot of moral groups is to use fear tatics.
Do I possess more wit? No. But I do look at people who tell me to be afraid if this or that happens with a skeptical eye. I always suspect someone when they tell me to be afraid of something if this thing happens or doesn't happen. And I especially am skeptical when someone tells me that if something happens it will send a negative message to a certain group of people.
And when it comes to people, there is no such thing as absolutes.
No. It isn't. Not on the basis of the evidence we have. It appears to make no difference at all, at best: and there is some evidence to show it makes matters worse. Can you address that please?
I have. I've said that we need regulations. Not just legalization, but regulations. I've never said it was a cure all. I said it's a start.
Keeping it illegal is obviously not the answer. Keeping it semi-legal (only buyhing illegal) is only band aid: something to make the lawmakers look good. The streetwalker is suffering just as much, if not worse.
Make it legal. It's a start. We can build from there with regulations that will help all kinds of prostitutes. The other options certainly are not.
I am glad you apologised. However I have not seen one single person who has not addressed this issue seriously in this thread and nobody has said it is wrong without giving a reason. This is just smearing and I am happy that you are going to stop it
I am sorry about letting my anger through. I pride myself in my patience and tenacity. However, I have seen others "smearing" when you haven't seen it. Perhaps, just perhaps, I have been exploited but you don't see it that way.
Now it's very very late. If my grammer or spelling is off, or if I have offended anyone, my apologies.
Fiona, I don't mean to be rude or discourtious, but I don't think we understand each other very well. Although, I do think I understand you better than you wish to percieve I do.
Are you the only one with the wit to think this through and all the rest of us are merely gullible? Wow. 
