Why is prostitution illegal?

[gdnp]

How much would I have to pay you to massage my shoulders?

$250 for half an hour, if it could be done at my convenience. That's about how much I get paid for my professional services. And your getting all this advice for free!

How much would I have to pay you to give me oral sex?

I don't think you have that much money. And I don't think you would enjoy it. I'd be too busy gagging.

How much would I have to pay to perform anal sex on you?

That's a tough one. I can't even stand rectal exams, and I don't really need the money. Then again, I can't say that I wouldn't do it for any price. $100 million? probably. $100,000? No way. That gives you a range.

How much extra if I didn't want to use a condom?

Wouldn't do it any more than I would play a game of Russian Roulette.

BTW, you could lower those prices substantially if my kids were starving and I had exhausted other methods of earning money.

Now that we've established this, what's your point? That everyone has a price? That some things people wouldn't or shouldn't do for any price? That people will pay more for sex than for a massage? That I wouldn't work as a prostitute unless desperate, thus prostitution should be illegal?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Oh, oh, I wanna play!

How much would I have to pay you to massage my shoulders?

$50.

How much would I have to pay you to give me oral sex?

$150.

How much would I have to pay to perform anal sex on you?

$300.

How much extra if I didn't want to use a condom?

All my medical bills.






Okay, I have been doing some research and I will post something more serious once I have time.

 

[luchog]

That coercion to have sex with someone you don't find sexually attractive (if not repulsive) is no more likely to have a greater negative impact emotionally than, say, being coerced to clean toilets?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the person. It certainly pays better.

 

[JFrankA]

From reading the study Articulett linked to, it seems 'pain in the ass' is quite frequently a complaint from prostitutes.

Okay, I'm not getting this....

You are comparing someone saying "oh that's a pain in the ass" with someone in Sweden complaining about the issues the law you're championing causes?

http://sensuellqkonsult.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/lies-about-sexwork-in-sweden/

In a perfect world, nothing. But surely you don't believe most prostitutes are hypersexual-screw-anything-with-a-pulse beings? That coercion to have sex with someone you don't find sexually attractive (if not repulsive) is no more likely to have a greater negative impact emotionally than, say, being coerced to clean toilets?

So wait...let me get this straight:

It's coerction and exploitation when a prostitute works at a legal brothel, has clients who pay legally, who's protected by a madam of house who has regulations to follow, such as days off, support the right not to work with a client they don't have to, provide protection, a safe and clean place to work, health care, (possibly child care and education expenses)

But it's NOT coerection and exploitation when the prostitute can't get a legally paying customer, can still get interrupted by the police at a moment's notice, has no protection from abusive customers, can't afford to refuse a customer, no health care, no child care, but not get arrested by the police????

Uhm, I'm sorry, I know I'm kinda dim sometimes, but I honestly, really and truly do not see your logic in any way, shape or form.

 

[gdnp]

Uhm, I'm sorry, I know I'm kinda dim sometimes, but I honestly, really and truly do not see your logic in any way, shape or form.

Try banging your head against the desk until it makes sense or you lose consciousness. It might help.

ETA: you see, it works better if you start with the conclusion and work backwards. That way, when someone attacks your reasoning, you can simply post a long paper, ask some irrelevant questions, or come up with some new reasons without having to alter your opinion.

 

[JFrankA]

Try banging your head against the desk until it makes sense or you lose consciousness. It might help.

ETA: you see, it works better if you start with the conclusion and work backwards. That way, when someone attacks your reasoning, you can simply post a long paper, ask some irrelevant questions, or come up with some new reasons without having to alter your opinion.

oooohhhhhhh

That's how it works!!!!!!

Thanks


Hey, I found more links about how wonderful this law is to prostitutes from their perspective:

http://www.petraostergren.com/content/view/44/67/

Here's an excerpt...

Health issues

All the women I have spoken to report feelings of emotional stress due to the legal situation and how they are treated socially. They have to hide, lie and keep double identities. They fear harassment and ostracism for themselves, their children and their partners.

The emotional stress also stems from a vulnerable and unclear financial situation. Since most women do not pay taxes they are scared of what will happen to them once they retire. Their pensions will be low and barely adequate to live on. When they fall ill, they still have to work or rely on what savings they may have, instead of relying on a right to workers compensation. The legal situation regarding taxation is unclear and varies from city to city. Some tax authorities will leave sexworkers alone, others will seek them out and tax them according to an arbitrary estimate. This worries sexworkers. Some of them have been subjected to this procedure with disastrous financial consequences. Others have only heard about it and worry it will happen to them.

Sexworkers report an increase in their emotional stress subsequent to the introduction of the new law. The sexworkers say that they now feel more worried about being found out as well as more worried about future income. Several report that they now have more anxiety, sleeping problems, concentration problems as well as problems related to eating disorders, alcohol and drugs.

The sexworkers I have interviewed report greater feelings of powerlessness and resignation than before the introduction of the new legislation. They feel as if there is "no point" in trying to change the system (or its direct effects on their lives) and that no one supports them or speaks for them.

Yup!!! What a great idea this was!!!!! There's absolutely no exploitation going on here at all!!!!!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

$250 for half an hour, if it could be done at my convenience. That's about how much I get paid for my professional services. And your getting all this advice for free!

I don't think you have that much money. And I don't think you would enjoy it. I'd be too busy gagging.

That's a tough one. I can't even stand rectal exams, and I don't really need the money. Then again, I can't say that I wouldn't do it for any price. $100 million? probably. $100,000? No way. That gives you a range.

Wouldn't do it any more than I would play a game of Russian Roulette.

So you're happy for someone else to be coerced into playing Russian Roulette.

BTW, you could lower those prices substantially if my kids were starving and I had exhausted other methods of earning money.

So you're happy to live in society which lets people's kids starve unless they turn to prostitution?

Now that we've established this, what's your point? That everyone has a price? That some things people wouldn't or shouldn't do for any price? That people will pay more for sex than for a massage? That I wouldn't work as a prostitute unless desperate, thus prostitution should be illegal?

My point is stop pretending the majority of prostitutes are radically different to you in how they feel about doing what they do.

The media loves to print stories of prostitutes who enjoy their work, probably because (a) it's about sex, and sex sells newspapers and magazines, and (b) it gives people the illusion prostitutes actively chose to pursue their career, rather than being coerced into it by financial need, drug dependence, mental and/or physical abuse, or a combination of all three.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the person. It certainly pays better.

Sure about that?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

So wait...let me get this straight:

It's coerction and exploitation when a prostitute works at a legal brothel, has clients who pay legally, who's protected by a madam of house who has regulations to follow, such as days off, support the right not to work with a client they don't have to, provide protection, a safe and clean place to work, health care, (possibly child care and education expenses)

It sounds like a fantastic job! I'm amazed more women don't choose it when you describe it like that.

But it's NOT coerection and exploitation when the prostitute can't get a legally paying customer, can still get interrupted by the police at a moment's notice, has no protection from abusive customers, can't afford to refuse a customer, no health care, no child care, but not get arrested by the police????

That sounds more realistic for most prostitutes working in brothels and on the street, legal or not.

Uhm, I'm sorry, I know I'm kinda dim sometimes, but I honestly, really and truly do not see your logic in any way, shape or form.

I doubt you ever will. I don't think you're dim.

 

[Belz...]

I do think if prostitution is legalised, the illegal sex trade will grow as well.

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

 

[I Ratant]

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

I've noticed very little of what Ivor says makes any sense also.
This is a goodie...

: Ivor.How much extra if I didn't want to use a condom?

The girl would be suicidal, or already infected, to agree to this at all!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

It only makes no sense if you think legalising prostitution means all conditions under which it is currently performed would become legal too.

 

[Fiona]

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

Except that is what the evidence says.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I've noticed very little of what Ivor says makes any sense also.
This is a goodie...

How much extra if I didn't want to use a condom?

The girl would be suicidal, or already infected, to agree to this at all!

So you're saying it doesn't happen? That prostitutes are not pressured and coerced with extra money to not use a condom?

 

[I Ratant]

I can't even get a BJ without me wearing a condom!
And considering where that mouth has been, I'm happy with that!
Don't even wanna consider the other site, what's been in that recently!
Seriously, anyone -insisting- on protectionless sex is a fool.
The gal agreeing as mentioned, is suicidal, or already infected.
Suicidal goes with those of the lowest self-esteem that are in the trade.
The kind of gal that needs two bags. You wear one in case hers falls off.

 

[JFrankA]

So you're saying it doesn't happen? That prostitutes are not pressured and coerced with extra money to not use a condom?

Just what is the stance here, Ivor? I'm sorry, I'm really not getting it.

Are you still championing the "Swedish law"? Because it's obvious to me that the only people who think the law helps anyone are the politicians and law makers. And doesn't help the streetwalkers at all, the very people everyone are supposedly so concerned with...

 

[gdnp]

So you're happy for someone else to be coerced into playing Russian Roulette.

Straw man. I do not wish people to be coerced into playing Russian Roulette.

So you're happy to live in society which lets people's kids starve unless they turn to prostitution?

Another straw man. I would not be happy to live in such a society. Outlawing prostitution, however, doesn't help the kids. Feel free to solve the problems of poverty and world hunger. No one is saying you shouldn't. It would definitely decrease the number of women and men willing to work as prostitutes.

My point is stop pretending the majority of prostitutes are radically different to you in how they feel about doing what they do.

Three straw men in a row. I don't think other people are that different than me. I suspect most prostitutes would trade their job for mine. They do not have that option. Perhaps they make the choice that they prefer working as a prostitute for $50/hr to cleaning toilets for minimum wage. For the most desperate, the choices may be prostitution, theft, or dealing drugs. As I said before, taking away prostitution as a choice leaves them with theft and drug dealing. I do not see this as improving their lot.

The media loves to print stories of prostitutes who enjoy their work, probably because (a) it's about sex, and sex sells newspapers and magazines, and (b) it gives people the illusion prostitutes actively chose to pursue their career, rather than being coerced into it by financial need, drug dependence, mental and/or physical abuse, or a combination of all three.

You must be watching or reading different sources than me. I have not seen many stories glamorizing the life of a prostitute.

 

[JFrankA]

Fiona, you asked me in which post I said why I think prostitution is illegal.

I've stated it in a few posts but I'll restate it again.

Prostitution is illegal for two reasons. Self-rightous moralistic stances and self-servering policital showboating.

Let me explain why.

What I've heard from the people on this thread who are against making prostitution legal is are several things: (Remember, these are my opinions, and I was asked for them. My apologies if I seem harsh or if I have offeneded anyone.)

1. What kind of message does prostitution send to men? This is only a perception and I notice a perception that men are the evil ones here, without regards to the other genders who might partake in a prostitute.

To me, it is the equivelent of a religious persons saying to me something like if there was no god, everyone would be killing and raping at will. It's a slippery slope arguement that has no weight. It is a moral stance.

2. Prostitution is caused by poverty, and there coerersive and exploitive. Another perception based on a philosophy, making the philosophy a reason to get on some sort of moral bandwagon. Well, sorry, that may be true some of the time, (and sorry, I'm not conviced one bit), but it is not an ineviability.

In my little opinion, people who are saying that prostitution should remain illegal for this reason, or just preaching this without giving a possible way of helping the people in this situtation is using prostition as political grandstanding and is therefore exploiting prostitutes themselves. (And doing it without even touching them! Good job!) This is a political stance. And the intent is not to solve the problem of the people suffering in this profession, but to prove that they are more "right" than everyone else.

3. Prostitution causes human trafficking. Again, a political stance. Simply, no it doesn't. Human trafficking can be used for sex purposes, but prostition doesn't cause that. If someone says that, they might as well say that the meat, toothpaste, chocolate industry also cause human trafficking as well. Human trafficking has gone up over the past few years dispite prostitution being illegal or semi-legal, as the case with Sweden.

As a side note, it occurs to me that there is the big influx of prostitutes to the Dutch may not all be because of human trafficking, but because it's legal for both seller and buyer. So that prostitutes who want to operate legally and do this job just move there. ...someone should look that up.....

There's more coming but I have a wall of text already. More will come at a later post.

 

[luchog]

Sure about that?

If it didn't, there'd be more toilet scrubbers and fewer prostitutes.

 

[JFrankA]

So you're saying it doesn't happen? That prostitutes are not pressured and coerced with extra money to not use a condom?

Appearently, in those legal brothels you are so against, it doesn't happen...

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/5/4/7/pages105470/p105470-1.php

From page 15:

In addition, customers are required by law to wear condoms. All of the women we interviewed were passionate about expressing their support for these laws. For example, they insisted that they always use condoms, whether the client prefers to or not. This is less about obeying the law, and more about their commitment to protecting their health, well-being and occupation. As one prostitute explained, “I always use a condom, no exceptions no exceptions at all, ever. I don’t care how much money you offer me, my life is worth more than that. That’s it.” As another working woman told us: “There isn’t to me a ****** that walks in here and pays enough money for you to take that chance. Apparently, us as hookers are doing it right since we haven’t had a single girl in the history of legalized prostitution working in a house of prostitution come down positive.”

Seems to me the "Swedish law" doesn't help instill this attitude at all.

I'm sorry, but the more I read about the "Swedish law" and legal brothels, I just don't see any logic in saying that the "Swedish law" works and legal brothels don't.

Now, I will go on to say that neither one tackles the suffering that some streetwalker are going through, but it seems to me that if there is, and I am going to dare say the dirty word here so prepare yourselves, the freedom to do this business legally for all parties involved, it is a major step in starting to help those people.