Why is prostitution illegal?

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

So wait....you are so concerned about how a man is demeaned by purchasing a prostitute's services, yet the man is the one who is more powerful, by your own words,



so...if men have so much more power over women, how can a man, going to a woman prostitute, be demeaned? I mean, he does have so much more power over her. So how is it demeaning to us more powerful men?

I said it demeans men. To give you another example, soldiers abusing prisoners demeans members of the military.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

It's not something I, personally, would want to do if I had a choice... but I would be glad to do it if it the alternative was poverty. If the alternative was doing that and just getting by or being phone sex operator and making a good living-- I'm pretty sure I'd do the latter.

<snip>

Why should the alternative be poverty? What does that say about a society?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

In order to make a case that a given method lessens the exploitation of women--(your supposed goal) you'd need to compare it to other methods and have a statistical means of measuring "exploitation" as my article did. There have been many documentaries and many books on the subject. I've read and watched many. We all have a vested interest in protecting vulnerable people in our societies. But we really don't have a right to regulate who consenting adults have sex with and the reasons they do so or what consenting adults do in private-- whether it involves the exchange of money for orgasms or not.

<snip>

Do we? Why not just let them die and the powerful prosper?

 

[domofish]

I live in Norway where prostitution is legal, both selling and buying but not trading.

It means that prostitutes are entitled to protection from the police, they have right to paid sick leave just everybody else. And I can’t find any argument for criminalizing the prostitutes.

Sweden passed a law making buying sex illegal in 1999 and as far as all the studies have shown, recruitment of prostitutes have gone down and there has been no increase in violence towards prostitutes. However, the prostitutes have an increased level of anxiety, because the sex has become “weirder” and more of the “nice” customers have stopped coming.
A similar law has been put forward in Norway as well, with a lot of discussion whether this will make the life easier on the prostitutes or not. (since Norway is very non-religious, there is almost no arguments based on “religious moral”).

Since the social services are very good, most women in prostitution in Norway and Sweden are drug addicts, victims of sexual abuse or women from other countries. There are however some that comes from well-established homes and without psychiatric disorder or history of abuse, but they are few.

When it comes to prostitutes, some feel that they do it voluntarily, and that they don’t feel degraded or anything like that. Even so, when they leave prostitution, they have a very high risk of PTSD and since many develop mental defences like dissociation they have a high risk of developing multiple personalitites or depressions. In other words, the happy hookers are far and few between, in Norway and Sweden at least. Prostitution is therefore something that a society should try to minimize, or at least try to help those who are in risk of prostitution because of no other alternatives. Making selling sex illegal is in all probability not the answer.

 

[articulett]

I'm out of here... I thought this was a discussion about why prostitution was illegal... and what is the best method for dealing with problems associated with prostitution. I thought I had a pretty in-depth insight into the subject from having read about it and living near places where it's legal. But it seems to have gone off into crazy land... where people with little knowledge on the subject think they know more than anybody else about what works-- more, even, than those involved in the sex trade.

I thought the study I provided was really interesting for anyone actually interested in the topic and potential solutions and how they compare with each other. I'm not interested in tangential queries designed to imply positions and send me off answering questions that people don't really want the answer to.

That is generally considered trolling. If your position is that prostitution should be illegal-- you ought to show why and how this solves problems in comparison with legalizing it. This means measuring harm... as the published article I linked does and comparing different approaches. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it helps facilitate understanding if there's coherency involved.

(P.S. good points --domofish--this was written before your input.)

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Making selling sex illegal is in all probability not the answer.

Good job I didn't propose that as a solution, then.

I thought I had a pretty in-depth insight into the subject from having read about it and living near places where it's legal.

Nah, you just remember the bits which support your opinion and forgot or ignore the rest.

 

[domofish]

Good job I didn't propose that as a solution, then.

I know, if I have understood you correctly you're for illegalizing buying, not selling sex.

I agree with you all the way when it comes to selling. Not because I believe that prostitution is an ok job (because it is generally NOT), but because it is safer and better for the prostitutes. Even though prostitution should be legal, a society should nevertheless try to minimize it.

But I am not so sure whether illegalizing buying will help the prostitutes or not. Prostitutes in Norway are in no way in agreement either, some are of the opinion that illegalizing buying will just put the prostitution away from the streets where it is more difficult to control it, some are of the opinion that it doesn't matter, they need help in other forms as shelters, empowering teams etc, and some are of the opinion that it would reduce prostitution, especially the prostitution where there is a stronger element of direct force (especially women from other countries)

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I know, if I have understood you correctly you're for illegalizing buying, not selling sex.

That's correct. I also think support to help prostitutes get out of prostitution and other associated problems such as drug addiction, should be much improved.

I agree with you all the way when it comes to selling. Not because I believe that prostitution is an ok job (because it is generally NOT), but because it is safer and better for the prostitutes. Even though prostitution should be legal, a society should nevertheless try to minimize it.

Making buying sex illegal gives the prostitutes all the power.

But I am not so sure whether illegalizing buying will help the prostitutes or not. Prostitutes in Norway are in no way in agreement either, some are of the opinion that illegalizing buying will just put the prostitution away from the streets where it is more difficult to control it, some are of the opinion that it doesn't matter, they need help in other forms as shelters, empowering teams etc, and some are of the opinion that it would reduce prostitution, especially the prostitution where there is a stronger element of direct force (especially women from other countries)

I don't think there's a perfect solution. I do think if prostitution is legalised, the illegal sex trade will grow as well.

One of the most interesting things I noticed in the study articulett linked to was the number of prostitutes who said they would not kiss clients, and clients who tried would be told to stop or leave.

Just like any other job? I don't think so.

 

[Blackadder]

I read a 50 replies to this topic but not all 400+ of them, but I wanted to add my views:

As a male I like sex. I like women and still marvel at their beauty. I never went to a prostitute. I don't think many (if any) female chooses to be one. I have seen too many young girls forced into it by so called 'lover boys' that I believe it is a black spot in our society. I can think of women liking sex, I can't think of any woman liking sex so much that she would do it all the time day in day out with a bunch of middle aged ugly males for money.

I have no problem with beautiful girls (as long as they are adults) posing naked for money. Men like to watch at them (me included) and that way the models can choose what they want to do and what not. And they can get a lot of money in little time, and stop doing it when they want.

I don't know why I think this is different from prostitution.. I guess it is because there is no direct contact between the provider and the client.

 

[domofish]

I do think if prostitution is legalised, the illegal sex trade will grow as well.

As I wrote earlier, I haven't decided yet on what I think about legalizing buying. But why exactly would this happen?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

As I wrote earlier, I haven't decided yet on what I think about legalizing buying. But why exactly would this happen?

Not all prostitutes will be able to work in the "nice" legalised brothels for various reasons. E.g., they're illegal immigrants, drug addicts, have HIV or other STD's, etc.

Not all men will be able to use the services of legal brothels for various reasons. E.g., they cannot afford the higher prices, they have an STD, they don't want to wear a condom, they're violent, etc.

When you legalise something, more people think it is acceptable behaviour. Demand for the product goes up.

I'm curious: Do those that support the legalising of both the buying and selling of sex think the buying and selling of human organs should be allowed too?

 

[JFrankA]

LOL!

A study of prostitutes in a country with legalised prostitution has nothing to do with the debate as to whether legalising prostitution achieves what its advocates claim?

All that matters is your belief that it would make things better.

Hey! Ivor..you're right! I see the light!

Let's keep prostitution illegal. It's working out so well: there's no violence against the women involved, they can go to the police when someone hurts them, they have a way of getting out of the business if they wanted to, there's absolutely no drug problems with any of the prostitutes now and it's not at all demeaning for a person to go a prostitute now.

So let's keep the status quo. It's perfect fine. All the studies that have been shown here are basically beliefs that don't matter. I can see how legalizing prostitution will make people think it's okay to abuse someone without repercussions, or responsibility. How legalizing prostitution would not make the worker have rights like other non-sex workers do.

You're absolutely right. Those four out of five prostitutes who say that making the sale legal and the buying illegal has changed nothing are just delusional. Maybe they're on drugs, so let's ignore them.

The system works. It's perfect.

And besides, legalizing would bring in unnecessary things like health care, and business supported programs, paid holidays, child care, protection by the police and all those other useless things...

Yup. You're right Keep the status quo.

















/end sarcasm

 

[JFrankA]

Not all prostitutes will be able to work in the "nice" legalised brothels for various reasons. E.g., they're illegal immigrants, drug addicts, have HIV or other STD's, etc.

...and there's not now? Making it legal would help give those people another choice to get help. Using that as an argument is just stupid because it changes NOTHING.

Not all men will be able to use the services of legal brothels for various reasons. E.g., they cannot afford the higher prices, they have an STD, they don't want to wear a condom, they're violent, etc.

Good. Then the women are protected like they should be. What's the problem there?

When you legalise something, more people think it is acceptable behaviour. Demand for the product goes up.

Sex will always be in demand. No matter what. What you are doing is a "slippery slope".

And besides, what's wrong with enjoying and participating in sex? Especially if it's done responsibly?

I'm curious: Do those that support the legalising of both the buying and selling of sex think the buying and selling of human organs should be allowed too?

Two completely and separate issues. Another irrelevant appeal. I'm not even going to bother to answer that.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Hey! Ivor..you're right! I see the light!

<snip>

Thanks!



I'm quite aware that my opinion on most things is totally irrelevant to virtually everyone but me.

 

[domofish]

Not all prostitutes will be able to work in the "nice" legalised brothels for various reasons. E.g., they're illegal immigrants, drug addicts, have HIV or other STD's, etc.

Not all men will be able to use the services of legal brothels for various reasons. E.g., they cannot afford the higher prices, they have an STD, they don't want to wear a condom, they're violent, etc.

You mean that if both buying and selling is legalized, you automatically get brothels? Why?

In Norway, now, both selling and buying is legal brothels are not, because that falls under the trading clause. (Trading is illegal), so there are no nice brothels, merely "massage parlours" and such which are illegal.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

...and there's not now? Making it legal would help give those people another choice to get help. Using that as an argument is just stupid because it changes NOTHING.

How? They are breaking the law. Or are you for making all prostitution, no matter under what conditions it is carried out, legal?

Good. Then the women are protected like they should be. What's the problem there?

The women in the legal brothels are protected. The women on the street and in the unregulated brothels are not.

Sex will always be in demand. No matter what. What you are doing is a "slippery slope".

No, it's a basic observation.

And besides, what's wrong with enjoying and participating in sex? Especially if it's done responsibly?

Absolutely nothing.

Two completely and separate issues. Another irrelevant appeal. I'm not even going to bother to answer that.

Humor me. Why can't I pay someone for one of their spare organs? What objection could someone such as yourself have to such a trade if it was legal and regulated?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

You mean that if both buying and selling is legalized, you automatically get brothels? Why?

Well I suppose you don't have to automatically get brothels, but they serve at least one function, which is to keep the legal services in one location which makes regulation more straightforward. I think it would be unlikely that legislation would be passed which allowed prostitutes to ply their trade anywhere.

 

[domofish]

I think it would be unlikely that legislation would be passed which allowed prostitutes to ply their trade anywhere.

Really? Unlikely or not, that is the case in Norway. I am not familiar with other countries as Germany, the Netherlands, Hungary etc where prostitution is legal, but I don't think prostitution is only legal in brothels there (correct me if I'm wrong)?

 

[gumboot]

On the other hand, it's perfectly legal to pay people to have sex, as long as it results in a product that you can sell (porn).

Clearly the logical solution then is to legalise child slavery, thus ensuring that prostitution results in a product that you can sell.

Win-win.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Really? Unlikely or not, that is the case in Norway. I am not familiar with other countries as Germany, the Netherlands, Hungary etc where prostitution is legal, but I don't think prostitution is only legal in brothels there (correct me if I'm wrong)?

IIRC, in the Netherlands they require a business license. I'd imagine in most places which planned on regulating prostitution in a way those in this thread think it should be, brothels are the only feasible solution.