Why gun control push fizzled?

[newyorkguy]

...better controls over gun manufacturers who, when subject to ATF inspections are usually unable to account for thousands of gun --especially handguns -- they manufactured.

Not saying the bolded isn't true but I'd definitely be interested in seeing a source on this. I've done some searching and the only thing I'm coming up with are stories about gun shops and the ATF themselves with missing guns.

As my local repair guy says, "Okay, no problem, only...when do you need it by?"

I posted this information in a much much previous thread. ATF said -- IIRC and I'll fairly sure I do -- the average annual 'unaccounted' is about 15,000 guns.

I'll look. Might take me a while to find it. It made quite an impression on me.

 

[BStrong]

Where I live in the Northeast I doubt that's true. I think the real problem is, most people (like me and my wife) seldom give guns or gun control a thought.

However, as you can see by the previous responses, it's not happening. Too many people are opposed to it.

Don't discount the NRA. Getting reelected takes money. Campaign financing has lots to do with who gets on the ballot in the primaries.

What I personally would like to see is a reduction in the two-hundred-thousand guns stolen every year from private owners, and better controls over gun manufacturers who, when subject to ATF inspections are usually unable to account for thousand of gun --especially handguns -- they manufactured.

Having been a licensee once upon a time, the bolded part is right up my alley.

There's a researcher up at UC Davis by the name of Garen Wintemute who wrote a paper - Ring of Fire, handgun makers of Southern California:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/RingofFire1994.pdf

In which he describes the manufacturers making inexpensive handguns - he documented the internal problems associated with employee theft and the diversion of stolen firearms to the illegal market.

What came out of his report among other things, was the closing of some of these manufacturers due to loss of license for failure to properly document inventory and having an effective security SOP for inventory control.

Here's the thing - ATF has -0- qualms about shutting down any licensee whether it's a manufacturer, distributor or retail dealer for failure to maintain inventory control over the firearms they have in possession - if the manufacturer et al has the financial ability to fight the ATF's administrative action against them is another issue, but I can assure you that in this day and age no licensee in the chain from manufacturer to dealer is losing thousands, hundreds or tens of firearms w/o being on the receiving end of an ATF enforcement action.

How serious is ATF? I know they've gone into retail dealers and compared inventory sales and 4473's going back decades looking for problems.

Here's a local dealer that fought for years, ended up surrendering his license, and in 2006, ATF was looking at records going back to 1967:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-LEANDRO-Big-gun-dealer-fighting-ATF-2500366.php

I did business with Tony for years, never saw anything questionable ever, and they were certainly the highest volume dealer on the west coast - they had so much pull with manufacturers that when we had the SOT we'd often buy firearms from him because his retail prices were lower than the best wholesale prices we could get direct from the manufacturer.

In his case, many if not all of the "missing" firearms were a result of in store paperwork being misfiled or lost, and when the article references that many of the firearms missing were actually in the hands of LEO's, I can testify that this was true, because I was one of 'em.

It's my opinion that the greatest source of stolen firearms is in-transit theft, and like some other laws pertaining to firearms, it seems to me that when the thieves are apprehended, they don't face serious enough consequences.

 

[Twiggett]

As my local repair guy says, "Okay, no problem, only...when do you need it by?"

I posted this information in a much much previous thread. ATF said -- IIRC and I'll fairly sure I do -- the average annual 'unaccounted' is about 15,000 guns.

I'll look. Might take me a while to find it. It made quite an impression on me.

No hurry, I'm a patient guy

Having been a licensee once upon a time, the bolded part is right up my alley.

There's a researcher up at UC Davis by the name of Garen Wintemute who wrote a paper - Ring of Fire, handgun makers of Southern California:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/RingofFire1994.pdf

In which he describes the manufacturers making inexpensive handguns - he documented the internal problems associated with employee theft and the diversion of stolen firearms to the illegal market.

What came out of his report among other things, was the closing of some of these manufacturers due to loss of license for failure to properly document inventory and having an effective security SOP for inventory control.

Here's the thing - ATF has -0- qualms about shutting down any licensee whether it's a manufacturer, distributor or retail dealer for failure to maintain inventory control over the firearms they have in possession - if the manufacturer et al has the financial ability to fight the ATF's administrative action against them is another issue, but I can assure you that in this day and age no licensee in the chain from manufacturer to dealer is losing thousands, hundreds or tens of firearms w/o being on the receiving end of an ATF enforcement action.

How serious is ATF? I know they've gone into retail dealers and compared inventory sales and 4473's going back decades looking for problems.

Here's a local dealer that fought for years, ended up surrendering his license, and in 2006, ATF was looking at records going back to 1967:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-LEANDRO-Big-gun-dealer-fighting-ATF-2500366.php

I did business with Tony for years, never saw anything questionable ever, and they were certainly the highest volume dealer on the west coast - they had so much pull with manufacturers that when we had the SOT we'd often buy firearms from him because his retail prices were lower than the best wholesale prices we could get direct from the manufacturer.

In his case, many if not all of the "missing" firearms were a result of in store paperwork being misfiled or lost, and when the article references that many of the firearms missing were actually in the hands of LEO's, I can testify that this was true, because I was one of 'em.

It's my opinion that the greatest source of stolen firearms is in-transit theft, and like some other laws pertaining to firearms, it seems to me that when the thieves are apprehended, they don't face serious enough consequences.

Thanks for all that, going to read that full report over the next couple of days

 

[tyr_13]

That is an incredibly fascinating comment and one which I think is very valid.

It boils down to ones ability to see the benefits of "something" to society even though it may appear to not directly benefit themselves. It's a form of empathy. A trait missing from way to many people. Libertarians and many Republicans come to mind

You'll note that I was talking specifically about the most liberal people I know (with a couple of exceptions), not about the entire set of people I know. I do know a few liberal Republicans though, so you're not completely off on that account.

While what you said is of course at play, it's also skepticism (little s there) of the urgency and extent of the problem. The people they know aren't effected by and large, so they may reason 'how bad is it really?'. It's also just something they aren't reminded of constantly because again, it doesn't come up.

Both sides introduced legislation and then voted the other sides out, so nothing happened. That lack of compromise and inability to come together and discuss what should be done is IMO the real problem.

This is the real issue. They're playing to the audience and not working, really working, at their jobs. It's almost trivial to craft a unified bill that gets both sides 80-90% of what they are asking for, but then they can't yell at the other side. Politics near it's worst.

 

[newyorkguy]

I remembered the number correctly -- 16,000 ---but not the time frame -- 30 months (not twelve) -- according to ATF data.

This was reported in September 2011:

Several thousand firearms--16,485 to be exact--have left gun factories in the U.S. without a record of being legally sold over the past two and a half years. That's according to new study (PDF) from the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence that did the arithmetic on data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (basically, the federal bureau of everything fun) dating from the beginning of 2009 to the middle of 2011. At that rate, an average of about 18 guns go missing from factories daily.

Link

As to retail gun dealers, in 2011 ATF recorded 8,449 hand guns "stolen or lost" from dealer inventories. Link

Political action funded and led by the NRA and the firearms industry has consistently made enforcement more difficult (as has been noted time and again by other posters).

The utility of requiring gun dealers to keep an inventory was recognized in the late 1990s when research revealed that a small fraction of gun dealers were the first sellers of the majority of guns recovered at crime scenes. As a follow-up to this research, ATF began focusing inspections on these problematic dealers and found rampant illegalities, including missing guns, noncompliant record-keeping, and hundreds of firearm sales to prohibited purchasers. In response, the Clinton administration proposed requiring gun sellers to keep an updated inventory to ensure that each firearm was properly accounted for.

In 2004 the NRA and others in the gun lobby shut down these efforts to rein in the problem of gun dealers failing to maintain control of their inventories by including a provision in the package of Tiahrt amendments that specifically prohibits ATF from requiring dealers to conduct an annual inventory. A business practice that is routine and uncontroversial in nearly every other retail market, including the retail market for explosives, which is also overseen by ATF, is banned by the federal government in the context of the sale of one of the most dangerous consumer products.

Link

Between manufacturers and dealers, close to 15,000 guns disappear every year in the United States. You know how gun advocates love to say, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"?

Now you know why.

 

[tyr_13]

I said the Northeast. In my mind that doesn't include western New York.

[derail] Really? Why? Is it not being on the Atlantic? Where else would it be?[/derail]

 

[casebro]

Re: lost inventory- didn't I just read in another thread here about the CIA buying guns directly from the manufacturers- with NO serial numbers? 16,000 seems not unreasonable.

Once upon a time at the range, some DoD people were shooting there. They left a bunch of 7.62x39 brass. Real brass, large primers, NO headstamp. I wonder which plant it 'disappeared' from?

 

[BStrong]

I remembered the number correctly -- 16,000 ---but not the time frame -- 30 months (not twelve) -- according to ATF data.

This was reported in September 2011:
Link

As to retail gun dealers, in 2011 ATF recorded 8,449 hand guns "stolen or lost" from dealer inventories. Link

Political action funded and led by the NRA and the firearms industry has consistently made enforcement more difficult (as has been noted time and again by other posters).

Link

Between manufacturers and dealers, close to 15,000 guns disappear every year in the United States. You know how gun advocates love to say, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"?

Now you know why.

The link from The Atlantic to the Brady report is a dead link, but I'm curious - is it alleged that these firearms that went missing were stolen at the manufacturing facility, or in transit? Having visited several factories over the years and seen the security protocols in use makes it hard for me to believe that anybody can remove firearms from the factories I've toured.

As far as crime guns being linked to a handful of dealers, the dealers with the most guns traced seem to be the largest volume dealers as well, as the shop I referenced in my above post. The Traders in San Leandro Ca. sold more firearms than any other dealer on the west coast, and in fact was probably close to being the top firearms retailer in terms of volume in the U.S. They had such purchasing clout that their otc retail sale prices were often times less expensive than what wholesale distributors were charging for the same firearm.

 

[BStrong]

Re: lost inventory- didn't I just read in another thread here about the CIA buying guns directly from the manufacturers- with NO serial numbers? 16,000 seems not unreasonable.

Once upon a time at the range, some DoD people were shooting there. They left a bunch of 7.62x39 brass. Real brass, large primers, NO headstamp. I wonder which plant it 'disappeared' from?

Good point, but if a manufacturer was running off sterile weapons on contract for the government, they wouldn't be on the books anyway.

The real question here for me is this:

I've personally examined Colt manufactured M16's with serial numbers far higher than acknowledged M16 production totals. It could be that since the rifles in question that I examined were in foreign military service they weren't counted by Colt in the production numbers, but that doesn't make much sense.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

If we had gun control how would the worlds organized criminals get their guns, safely. legally, and cheaply? I.e. The Reds

 

[newyorkguy]

The link from The Atlantic to the Brady report is a dead link, but I'm curious - is it alleged that these firearms that went missing were stolen at the manufacturing facility, or in transit? Having visited several factories over the years and seen the security protocols in use makes it hard for me to believe that anybody can remove firearms from the factories I've toured.

As far as crime guns being linked to a handful of dealers, the dealers with the most guns traced seem to be the largest volume dealers as well, as the shop I referenced in my above post. The Traders in San Leandro Ca. sold more firearms than any other dealer on the west coast, and in fact was probably close to being the top firearms retailer in terms of volume in the U.S. They had such purchasing clout that their otc retail sale prices were often times less expensive than what wholesale distributors were charging for the same firearm.

I don't know whether the guns went 'missing; during transit, but I believe the ATF inspections were done at the manufacturing facility. Once they're in transit I would assume ATF would recognize they were no longer under the manufacturers' control.

As for dealers "losing" paperwork for thousands of guns, it's possible but doesn't that sound kind of fishy? I worked in inventory control. It's not rocket science. We were a regulated industry, OTC drugs, there were certain inventory items that we had to be able to account for every gram. It involved accounting for tens of thousands of units, literally millions per year. We did it. We had no choice.

What kind of business people are these dealers? That they have so much trouble controlling their inventory, given the potential to sell 'under-the-table,' it's hard to accept chalking it all off to sloppy bookkeeping.

 

[WildCat]

and I'll fairly sure I do -- the average annual 'unaccounted' is about 15,000 guns.

"unaccounted" does not mean "disappeared" or "fell into other hands". It could simply mean a clerk entered a wrong serial number, or records got destroyed or lost.

Reminds me of how 9/11 truthers jumped all over Rumsfeld's statement that several trillions of dollars of Pentagon money was unaccounted for, and instantly assumed it went missing as opposed to it being spent on normal things besides remote controlled airplanes and weather control devices and giant orbiting dustifying equipment.

 

[WildCat]

As for dealers "losing" paperwork for thousands of guns, it's possible but doesn't that sound kind of fishy? I worked in inventory control. It's not rocket science. We were a regulated industry, OTC drugs, there were certain inventory items that we had to be able to account for every gram. It involved accounting for tens of thousands of units, literally millions per year. We did it. We had no choice.

And if you tell me you accounted for 100% of your inventory every year I'll call bull[feces].

No system is error-proof, particularly as volume rises.

 

[Nessie]

Two very informative posts by Ranb and BStrong have shown that failure to enforce the law is a problem.

So why are the laws not being enforced properly? Would re-writing then to make them simpler and easier to enforce not be an answer?

 

[Bikewer]

NPR ran a couple of articles on what the ATF goes through a couple of weeks ago. Due to lobbying from the NRA and other "Pro" groups, the ATF is prohibited from having what you'd think would be a necessity.... A computerized database.
What they have is stacks and stacks and more stacks of paper files, dealer sales records and so forth.
They also get stacks and boxes of materials from dealerships that have closed down, and some from dealers who are rather anti-ATF, and who (legally) write up records on toilet paper and such.
These materials are kept in overflowing warehouse space and in shipping containers kept in the parking lot... And each search for a sales record is conducted by hand....

I wonder how many "lost" guns may simply be attributed to poor record-keeping, malicious misinformation, and sheer inefficiency?

As well, we know that the problem of thefts of all kinds from shipping, delivering, and warehousing operations amounts to many billions of dollars yearly. Trains are looted in rail yards, tractors looted at truck-stops and distribution points, merchandise walks out the back door of manufacturers...

We had a friend who was in the "railroad salvage" business for years. Loads would shift, cars would be damaged, cars would break down...etc. They would get these carloads of goods and try to save as much as possible for the shipper.
Some merchandise would be irreparably damaged... And some just lying around loose in the cars... Often never to see the inside of the car again..... He had 30+ employees and couldn't keep track of them all.

 

[Sabretooth]

Two very informative posts by Ranb and BStrong have shown that failure to enforce the law is a problem.

So why are the laws not being enforced properly? Would re-writing then to make them simpler and easier to enforce not be an answer?

Well, it doesn't help that police officers have become more like tax collectors than policemen over the last 15-20 years or so...

My father is a retired LEO and we had this discussion just a few weeks ago. He would get super pissed at the younger cops constantly. Infractions for marijuana use, domestics, and, yes, sometimes illegally possessed handguns...all of which carry some serious weight in charges...would go unreported. Why? Simply because the officers did not want to have to spend the time writing up the paperwork.

However, if they see a driver with an expired inspection sticker or a driver not wearing a seatbelt or a parked vehicle who's meter expired 32 seconds ago? You can bet they took the time out of their busy work day to ticket those people. Because...cha-ching! That's easy revenue for the town coffers.

Many (not all) LEO's these days are lazy. I see it all the time just in my little town.

Is this why the laws aren't being enforced? Maybe. My point of view could be hand-waved as anecdotal...and that's OK. But laws regarding handgun possession are pretty black and white here in NY. It's as simple as this:

Officer: Sir, may I see your permit for the .38 you are carrying?
Perp: I don't have a permit.
Officer: You're under arrest...you have the right to remain silent...blah, blah...

But, you also need to consider that the BATF is supposed to be prosecuting cases when it's reported to them. They are not doing their job. That link is floating around one of these threads. If the Bureau that is in charge of prosecuting illegal gun possession is not doing their *********** job to begin with, how is even one more "gun control" law going to have a positive effect on society?

 

[newyorkguy]

The point about guns stolen in transit, I doubt those guns would be classified as 'lost.'

If they are shipped by common carrier the carrier has to be provided a shipping list at the point of loading. It has to enumerate the 'number of pieces' received. That has to match the number delivered. If it doesn't match the shipper would file an insurance claim. The carrier would be responsible for paying the claim.

The more important point is, are guns being sold illegally by manufacturers and dealers. Sold on the black market.

We know that they undoubtedly are. The government, through the ATF, has sought to stop this. It at least appears the gun industry's position has been non-cooperative, to frustrate those efforts. Instead of working to end the practice, the industry lobbyists seem primarily concerned with devising ways to conceal illegal sales by members of the industry.

Equally ominous is, the gun industry has fought efforts to establish better controls over their product. They are much less cooperative than other industries. The industry fought for legislation prohibiting the "ATF from requiring dealers to conduct an annual inventory. A business practice that is routine and uncontroversial in nearly every other retail market..."

 

[NWO Sentryman]

As demographics shift towards Minorities, Millennials and women, the gun control movement will have a lot more success. The NRA types are largely baby boomers who are dying out and will be gone from the political scene in the next 20 or so years.

 

[tyr_13]

NPR ran a couple of articles on what the ATF goes through a couple of weeks ago. Due to lobbying from the NRA and other "Pro" groups, the ATF is prohibited from having what you'd think would be a necessity.... A computerized database.
What they have is stacks and stacks and more stacks of paper files, dealer sales records and so forth.
They also get stacks and boxes of materials from dealerships that have closed down, and some from dealers who are rather anti-ATF, and who (legally) write up records on toilet paper and such.
These materials are kept in overflowing warehouse space and in shipping containers kept in the parking lot... And each search for a sales record is conducted by hand....

I wonder how many "lost" guns may simply be attributed to poor record-keeping, malicious misinformation, and sheer inefficiency?

As well, we know that the problem of thefts of all kinds from shipping, delivering, and warehousing operations amounts to many billions of dollars yearly. Trains are looted in rail yards, tractors looted at truck-stops and distribution points, merchandise walks out the back door of manufacturers...

We had a friend who was in the "railroad salvage" business for years. Loads would shift, cars would be damaged, cars would break down...etc. They would get these carloads of goods and try to save as much as possible for the shipper.
Some merchandise would be irreparably damaged... And some just lying around loose in the cars... Often never to see the inside of the car again..... He had 30+ employees and couldn't keep track of them all.

Wow, that's crazy. I suppose the reasoning behind not having a computer database is some sort of registration fear? But surely there is a work around for that, or simply a policy solution.

How sad.

 

[Bikewer]

That's exactly the case, according to the article... The fear of a nationwide registration program....Which would of course enable nationwide confiscation at some point.