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Why gun control push fizzled?

What came out of his report among other things, was the closing of some of these manufacturers due to loss of license for failure to properly document inventory and having an effective security SOP for inventory control.

I toured the Kel-Tec manufacturer here in Cocoa Beach FL just a couple weeks ago. The inventory control methods there were incredible. Clear tables, no pockets of any kind on their clothing, no bags, purses, or anything of the sort on the manufacturing floor. Any bags that were allowed had to be clear or mesh. They had metal detectors going in and out of the manufacturing floor.

And the amount of security cameras they had, wow. I thought they were related to rabbits. They were literally everywhere. And not cheap ones either.

Another thing they did, is they would not allow the security folks to associate whatsoever with them. At all. None. If they were caught doing any kind of socializing, they both were fired on the spot.

It really was incredible. And they're a smaller outfit. They make about 7 different guns, and their sales are fairly small compared to some others. I'd be shocked if they've ever lost a gun in their facility.
 
As demographics shift towards Minorities, Millennials and women, the gun control movement will have a lot more success. The NRA types are largely baby boomers who are dying out and will be gone from the political scene in the next 20 or so years.
As a range safety officer at the local rifle ranges I can tell you that is unlikely to happen. Ten years ago I mostly saw middle aged white men at the range. Now I am finding many more women, younger adults and even a few more minorities. I think it is directly related to the efforts to restrict firearms. Many people are trying to find out what the big deal is about "banning" guns. Where I work they are for the most part learning that guns are fun, can be safe to use and are not the menace to society that certain politicians claim.

In one way guns are like books, nothing sells like something banned.

Ranb
 
I don't know whether the guns went 'missing; during transit, but I believe the ATF inspections were done at the manufacturing facility. Once they're in transit I would assume ATF would recognize they were no longer under the manufacturers' control.

As for dealers "losing" paperwork for thousands of guns, it's possible but doesn't that sound kind of fishy? I worked in inventory control. It's not rocket science. We were a regulated industry, OTC drugs, there were certain inventory items that we had to be able to account for every gram. It involved accounting for tens of thousands of units, literally millions per year. We did it. We had no choice.

What kind of business people are these dealers? That they have so much trouble controlling their inventory, given the potential to sell 'under-the-table,' it's hard to accept chalking it all off to sloppy bookkeeping.

For a good example, we can look at the case involving the Traders:

The audit found 3,659 firearms on the premises -- but the store's records indicated there were 9,100 firearms in its inventory. Cucchiara and ATF inspectors tried to reconcile the discrepancy and discovered an additional 2,036 weapons could not be accounted for -- bringing the total unaccounted for to 7,477, court documents showed.

Most of those weapons were tracked down, according to Cucchiara, but when the ATF issued its final notice of revocation in December, 1,767 remained unaccounted for, the ATF said.

With ATF and the dealer working together to reconcile the paperwork, they went from 7,477 "missing" to 1,767 - huge numbers if you don't take into account that the Traders probably sold 2,500 firearms a week, M/L

WRT paperwork and firearms - In California there are regulations requiring a seperate state form called the Dealers Record of Sale to be filed w/ the state in every handgun sale (soon to be required for all long guns as well in 2014), a form detailing the purchaser passed a safe handling test for the handgun purchased along with a copy of the purchaser's handgun safety certificate and a thumb print on the DROS form -all this along with the federal 4473 form.

If any of that package turns up missing in an ATF audit, including the state mandated forms, they consider it a failure on the part of the dealer to properly maintain the required firearm purchase documents, and if the missing paperwork is the 4473, they consider that to constitute a "missing" firearm (note that this is for retail dealers, not manufacturers) from the dealer's inventory.

In high volume dealers like the Traders, it is very possible that one employee starts the purchase process, another takes over at some point and the ball was dropped - a savvy buyer will bring it to the attention of the salesperson involved (I have) but not every buyer knows the exact process required - the sales man doesn't touch third base and nobody catches it during the ten day waiting period, and the dealer has an issue w/ ATF at the next audit.

I don't doubt that crooked dealers exist - I know for a fact that there have been FFL holders that bent or broke the law and were tried and convicted when caught, ATF doesn't muck about when they have a dealer on the hot seat - and please notice in the Trader's case, the issue was resolved by the surrender of the FFL, not criminal prosecution - if they had the goods on Tony, he would have been in federal criminal court.

I would love to have the authority and funding to really look into this issue, but nobody is asking me for my opinion. If it was up to me, and we could prove a dealer or manufacturer was crooked, I'd hang them from the same tree I'd hang someone that criminally used their firearm against another person.
 
As a range safety officer at the local rifle ranges I can tell you that is unlikely to happen. Ten years ago I mostly saw middle aged white men at the range. Now I am finding many more women, younger adults and even a few more minorities. I think it is directly related to the efforts to restrict firearms. Many people are trying to find out what the big deal is about "banning" guns. Where I work they are for the most part learning that guns are fun, can be safe to use and are not the menace to society that certain politicians claim.

In one way guns are like books, nothing sells like something banned.

Ranb

The local range I'm a member of is filled with women shooters and minority shooters - and the local chapter of the Pink Pistols shoots every Thursday night.

The joke I have with the owner is that he should charge off the dating environment for his employees as a fringe benefit.
 
I don't know how big a problem is guns being stolen in transit. One difficulty is, neither the shipper nor the carrier is required to report stolen guns in transit to ATF.

Hindering investigations into firearms looted during transit is a lack of mandated reporting, officials say. While firearms dealers do have to report guns missing in their inventories, there is no comparable mandate that guns lost during shipping must be reported.

It does not seem to be a huge problem. UPS had a problem with firearm theft -- and remember while it's in their hands if it's lost or damaged UPS has to pay -- and they discovered in most cases the guns were stolen in distribution centers, often by low-wage UPS package handlers. Solution? UPS requires guns to be shipped Overnight Air. Shipments by air are much more secure.

AmChar and sister company American Tactical Imports...deal in tens of thousands of firearms...[Their records] show more than 40 guns went missing in transport over a five-year period.

Forty missing guns out of tens of thousands isn't too bad. Is that typical? Without reporting requirements it's not possible to say.
 
I don't know how big a problem is guns being stolen in transit. One difficulty is, neither the shipper nor the carrier is required to report stolen guns in transit to ATF.



It does not seem to be a huge problem. UPS had a problem with firearm theft -- and remember while it's in their hands if it's lost or damaged UPS has to pay -- and they discovered in most cases the guns were stolen in distribution centers, often by low-wage UPS package handlers. Solution? UPS requires guns to be shipped Overnight Air. Shipments by air are much more secure.



Forty missing guns out of tens of thousands isn't too bad. Is that typical? Without reporting requirements it's not possible to say.

I don't know of a single instance where a firearm went missing in transit and the guy waiting on the delivery that never arrived shrugged his shoulders and called it a day - the first call the guy makes is some LEA, either local or the ATF or both. The insurance company for the manufacturer, the shipper and the recipient all get involved etc.

I'm willing to accept that some firearms are lost in transit like anything else that gets shipped, but sometimes you have to wonder.

I once shipped a rifle to a gun manufacturer in Arizona, from South San Francisco California.

The rifle disappeared in transit, was discovered in the shipper's Florida facility, and was then shipped to the correct place - how was the firearm lost for a week and found on the other side of the country? I have no idea and neither did the shipper but I was just grateful that the piece hadn't gone Elvis.

Dealers, shippers and manufacturers aren't the only folks who lose firearms, this from a personal communication from 2006, redacted:

I got this directly from an instructor at NYPD's Rodmans Neck firing range.

One of the instructors there is a Surefire Flashlight distributor. This is in direct violation of NYPD's rules about cops holding jobs with vendors.

Anyway, he arranged for Surefire to send 4 suppressors to the neck for T&E. Now, NYPD loves T&Eing stuff and then not buying it. They treat the test units like crap and sometimes never return them. They tested Benellis for years and still use the beat up Ithaca short barreled model 37 for ESU.
Anyway, I digress. 4 suppressors were shipped in and a couple months later, 1 was returned.

A dialogue something like this ensued:

Surefire: Uh, what about the other 3 suppressors?

NYPD: Uh, what other suppressors?

Surefire: Uh, we sent you 4 suppressors and you sent us one back.

NYPD: Uh, no you didn't. You sent us one and we returned it to you.

Surefire: Uh, BS! We sent you 4 and they run about a thousand bucks a piece and ATFE needs to know where they are!

NYPD: Uh, no you didn't. Sorry.

So now Surefire needs to explain where 3 of its cans went and NYPD gets to smirk and T&E other stuff which they will never buy.

The NYPD has "lost" so many machineguns and suppressors in the past, that nothing will ever come of it and some cheesedick has a new toy in his gunsafe.

Just thought you would get a kick out of this.


I didn't get any kick out of knowing NYPD more or less scammed a manufacturer, or at best doesn't have significant control over T. & E gear.
 
So now Surefire needs to explain where 3 of its cans went and NYPD gets to smirk and T&E other stuff which they will never buy.
Those cans should have gone from Surefire to the NYPD on an ATF form 3 (if dealer to dealer) or an ATF form 4 if a normal transfer tax free or not. Either way the BATFE should know who has possession of those three missing cans if Surefire bothered to do the transfer legally. If they didn't bother with the paperwork, then the idiot handing them over is SOL. I suppose that Surefire doesn't want to jeopardize any lucrative relationship they have with the NYPD so chances are they will not report them as stolen and list the NYPD as the ones responsible.

The NYPD has "lost" so many machineguns and suppressors in the past, that nothing will ever come of it and some cheesedick has a new toy in his gunsafe.
Sounds like some cop might have an illegally possessed silencer in his gun safe.

But I can see the BATFE not really caring.

Ranb
 
I don't know of a single instance where a firearm went missing in transit and the guy waiting on the delivery that never arrived shrugged his shoulders and called it a day - the first call the guy makes is some LEA, either local or the ATF or both. The insurance company for the manufacturer, the shipper and the recipient all get involved etc.

<snip>

I would guess the person who never gets his gun order delivered would first call the seller. I worked in a factory shipping department. We had freight go missing. Sometimes it was my job to track it down. If it doesn't arrive how do you know that means it was stolen? You call the seller and ask, "Hey what happened?" Normally their response is to look up their shipping records, determine the order was shipped and then they would usually say, 'Let me call ABC Freight and find out what's going on. What happened to your order." All the big carriers have numbers you can call to track a shipment based on the waybill number the driver has to provide when he accepts the shipment.

A missing shipment does not necessarily mean it was stolen. Shipments get lost all the time. If it turns out the shipment was stolen (or at least 'disappeared' while in transit) I think the transporter would then call police. After first notifying their insurance company. To pay the claim the insurer will undoubtedly require a police report was made and a copy of the report is furnished along with the insurance claim.
 
That's exactly the case, according to the article... The fear of a nationwide registration program....Which would of course enable nationwide confiscation at some point.

You mean just like what happened when they made us register our cars?

Sounds like a slippery slope argument.
 
Those cans should have gone from Surefire to the NYPD on an ATF form 3 (if dealer to dealer) or an ATF form 4 if a normal transfer tax free or not. Either way the BATFE should know who has possession of those three missing cans if Surefire bothered to do the transfer legally. If they didn't bother with the paperwork, then the idiot handing them over is SOL. I suppose that Surefire doesn't want to jeopardize any lucrative relationship they have with the NYPD so chances are they will not report them as stolen and list the NYPD as the ones responsible.


Sounds like some cop might have an illegally possessed silencer in his gun safe.

But I can see the BATFE not really caring.

Ranb

I can tell you from personal experience that manufacturers will often supply NFA weapons and devices solely on authority of departmental letter head for T. & E., and even today there are departments that possess NFA weapons acquired pre-68 that have no paper- it kills me to think about all the great stuff that would be transferable today had someone filed the amnesty reg forms way back when.
 
You mean just like what happened when they made us register our cars?

Sounds like a slippery slope argument.

The difference being that registration wrt firearms usually really means governmental permission to posses -that's what it is in California and elsewhere, and that's exactly what it means wrt NFA weapons and devices.

Vehicles are registered as a tax generating operation more than anything else- you want to buy a million dollar car? have at it, just pay the sales tax to the state and they're happy.
 
I can tell you from personal experience that manufacturers will often supply NFA weapons and devices solely on authority of departmental letter head for T. & E., and even today there are departments that possess NFA weapons acquired pre-68 that have no paper- it kills me to think about all the great stuff that would be transferable today had someone filed the amnesty reg forms way back when.
I forgot about the "love letter" method of obtaining authorization for making NFA firearms as it is usually associated with machine guns (AFAIK). But doesn't the BATFE still have to authorize the transfer on ATF forms 3 or 4 after the manufacturer registers it on the form 2?

Ranb
 
You mean just like what happened when they made us register our cars?

Sounds like a slippery slope argument.
I didn't have to pay a $200 tax to register the muffler on my car the way I do the mufflers I make for my guns.

Ranb
 
I forgot about the "love letter" method of obtaining authorization for making NFA firearms as it is usually associated with machine guns (AFAIK). But doesn't the BATFE still have to authorize the transfer on ATF forms 3 or 4 after the manufacturer registers it on the form 2?

Ranb

It's just pro forma as SOP, but like I said, a manufacturer will ship on departmental letterhead, which has led to some real problems for some agencies and some dealers - you might have heard about the dealer that had a stack of love letters from a department for post-samples that basically bought and imported every former combloc weapon under the sun up to KPV's and DSHk's in quantity.

That didn't end well.
 
But did you take my statement a bit out of context? I said it was our representative democracy at work that defeated the DiFi bill. It was. 15 democratic senators were afraid of what their constituents would do to them come re-election time.
Yes. Sorry about the ready-fire-aim.
 
You mean just like what happened when they made us register our cars?

Sounds like a slippery slope argument.
You won't need to worry about car confiscation until we get enough High Speed Rail and local trams-buses operating.

The confiscation will be needed to get closer to profitability. :D
 
You mean just like what happened when they made us register our cars?

Sounds like a slippery slope argument.

You don't have to register a car to own one.
You only need to register a car to drive it on the street.
 

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